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Epic Dragon Worth It?

Stephen Franchek

Stephen Franchek

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Hello!
I would like to get a general consensus, as I am considering several purchase options.
I've been renting out/shooting on my Scarlet for over a year now. It's been a very positive experience! So much so that I was 100% ready to plunk down $20k to upgrade to the Epic Dragon.
HOWEVER! My excitement over the Dragon Sensor pricing was quickly marred by Black Magic Design's new 4K camera.
Now I'm only... I dunno... 47% sure I want to upgrade to Epic Dragon.
My clients thus far have been small Indi productions and the like. If I upgrade to Epic dragon, I'm naturally going to have to charge more and thus risk alienating my current clientele. I'm also worried that the BMCC will shake the market enough that I won't be able to make my money back.

So, I definitely want to upgrade my rental offerings. I have a full set of RPPs and an 18-85 RPZ. Should I buy more lenses? Should I upgrade to Epic Dragon? I mean lenses definitely hold their value longer than computer devices. Do you think Epic Dragon rentals in the NYC area will still be in demand 2 years from now?

Halp...

P.S. The biggest reason I'm considering E-D is because I WANT TO SHOOT ON IT SO BAD! I just don't want to end up with an AMAZING yet worthless camera if the indi world settles on BMCC
 
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Can't imagine you'd ever regret getting the Epic Dragon. The new BMCC is unproven and, while it is cheaper, I certainly doubt it will turn out to be as good or better than RED. But, who knows? Life's a gamble.

As far as charging more, never be afraid to upgrade your clientele.
 
Only one response so far... that makes me worry. We'll see how this thread looks in the morning. Goodnight Redusers!
 
I don't think the indi world will settle on anything. I have seen indi production you a wide range of cameras usually dependent on there budget.

Which ever route you choose to got you'll either keep your current clientele or gain new ones.
 
Why don't you plunk down 9500 and upgrade to Epic, a proven workhorse and then later this year or early next upgrade to Dragon when all the kinks have been worked out. This is the path I intend to take tomorrow morning. There are advantages to being one generation behind the bleeding edge...
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Can't imagine you'd ever regret getting the Epic Dragon. The new BMCC is unproven and, while it is cheaper, I certainly doubt it will turn out to be as good or better than RED. But, who knows? Life's a gamble.

As far as charging more, never be afraid to upgrade your clientele.
Click to expand...

At least you could play with both BMCC cameras and actually see images. Anyone seen ANY images from Dragon? It's complete mystery to me, that Red already selling, upgrading and delivering Dragon sensor and yet, no images had been seen. Were they showing it at NAB?
 
Jason Goodman said:
they showed some images of that lizard with his mouth opened. Looked good. With 20 people leaving Las Vegas with Dragon in hand, I imagine we will see a lot of images soon.
Click to expand...

I could be wrong but I thought I'd read that the sensor upgrade was happening at NAB but the owners would get their cameras back the following week...
 
Jason Goodman said:
they showed some images of that lizard with his mouth opened. Looked good. With 20 people leaving Las Vegas with Dragon in hand, I imagine we will see a lot of images soon.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it was a STILL image:-)
Oh, and obviously there were those B/W patches showing 20 stops of DR:-)
 
Daniel Pearson said:
I could be wrong but I thought I'd read that the sensor upgrade was happening at NAB but the owners would get their cameras back the following week...
Click to expand...

Correct. Once the color science is done, so I doubt those cameras will be sent home right away.
 
I'm going for BMCC, got some nice EF lenses and learning to fly RC copters, also have done 20 years of underwater work and the form factor seems ideal for what I shoot. The Red Epic is a great camera no doubt but......I'm Aussie and I would like to support this new manufacturer and see how far they can go...4K for 4K...sounds somewhat familiar?
 
I am a indie guy but I bought two EPICs. :lol:And will upgradde them to dragon soon. Anyway, pay attention to your clients, my target is movie, if you clients' target is TV, BMCC may be right choice for the price and enough quality.
 
I would like to upgrade, but am reluctant mostly due to having only a 90 day warranty, even if you have Red Armor. My current Epic was a replacement of my previous Epic which continued to malfunction even after Red repaired it. And my current Epic has to be repaired once already as well. And I only got my first Epic a year ago. So reliability and a 90 day warranty is a HUGE issue.

And then there's the issue of not seeing any footage yet. I'm curious to see a comparison test of Epic Dragon vs. Epic MX, both shot at max resolution but transcoded to 4K to see how much of a difference there is.

I might place the order to get in line, but I'm not paying money or sending the camera in for the upgrade until I see footage and the warranty issue gets addressed. 90 days is absolutely unacceptable for a $10K expense. I don't know who thinks that policy is a good idea.
 
Stephen Franchek said:
Hello!
I would like to get a general consensus, as I am considering several purchase options.
I've been renting out/shooting on my Scarlet for over a year now. It's been a very positive experience! So much so that I was 100% ready to plunk down $20k to upgrade to the Epic Dragon.
HOWEVER! My excitement over the Dragon Sensor pricing was quickly marred by Black Magic Design's new 4K camera.
Now I'm only... I dunno... 47% sure I want to upgrade to Epic Dragon.
My clients thus far have been small Indi productions and the like. If I upgrade to Epic dragon, I'm naturally going to have to charge more and thus risk alienating my current clientele. I'm also worried that the BMCC will shake the market enough that I won't be able to make my money back.
Click to expand...

If things are going well for you, I'd stick with what you have. I doubt most clients are going to pay more for a new sensor w/ 6K when they won't really see the difference from what you're offering at 4K. I've heard the term thrown around lately-- 'future proofing"-- which is the idea RED management has up their sleeve to take on ARRI and the Alexa. RED lost pretty badly the first time they went head to head in 2010, and now RED is looking to capture that title with the Dragon. They're hoping the big studios, knowing that 4K projectors and TVs are coming, will think that the images produced on an Alexa will look bad in 4 or 5 years. We don't have that problem because we're not producing major films. Alexa is not going to worry, because they proved at NAB that their images look great on a 4k screen.

With the release of their new prices this week they made it clear, that they have no real interest in the smaller end arena. They'll release the new Scarlet Dragon brain tomorrow at 17K-- which means after getting all the gear, will be more like 23K. That will be the cheapest of their new cameras. The only camera option being offered to the indie filmmaker continues to be the $10K Scarlet package. But with RED telling everyone they'll buy back used Scarlets for a 5K credit to an Epic, you'd be really silly to buy a new Scarlet now. Especially with these outrageous upgrade prices.

Thus, the only real option for the indie film makers, and small production houses like mine, is the Dragon Scarlet. But it's pricey. My suggestion, and what i've been telling everyone, is to sit on your hands for now. When RED gets no new business from the Alexa crowd, and no love from the smaller guys they just priced out of the game with this ridiculous upgrade cost, guess where RED will come running back to? The independent filmmakers that got RED to where they are today.

I'd be willing to pay 6K to upgrade my Scarlet. if and when they come down in price, I may take a look at RED again. I'm not paying 9.5k to upgrade a camera selling for 8K. Just out of principle, i'm not doing it. that's preposterous. Til then, i'm kicking ass with my Scarlet, and i'm hedging my bets with the BMC 4K. That seems like the future camera maker I was hoping RED was going to be.

And anyone who trades in their Scarlet for a 5K credit towards a 24K Epic Dragon is crazy. That's saying that the Epic Dragon is worth 5 Scarlets. Sorry, that's crazy. 95% of the world won't be able to tell the difference between footage from your Scarlet compared to the Epic Dragon footage. And that's why it's a money loser to upgrade to Epic Dragon.

I'm waiting for the official price and official specs before making up my mind- but at 9.5K, i'm passing for now.
 
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I think these cameras being called an upgrade is somewhat misleading - really the Scarlet and Epic Dragon are new cameras, yet they share some of the internal components. A Scarlet Dragon has the sensor and internal electronics swapped. Depending on how much a brand new Scarlet Dragon is released for, and assuming they continue to sell MX cameras, I don't really see it as $9500 to simply upgrade my camera - I'm getting a brand new camera with a pretty sweet discount to reuse some of the same components.
 
Stephen Franchek said:
I've been renting out/shooting on my Scarlet for over a year now. It's been a very positive experience! So much so that I was 100% ready to plunk down $20k to upgrade to the Epic Dragon.
HOWEVER! My excitement over the Dragon Sensor pricing was quickly marred by Black Magic Design's new 4K camera.
Now I'm only... I dunno... 47% sure I want to upgrade to Epic Dragon.
My clients thus far have been small Indi productions and the like. If I upgrade to Epic dragon, I'm naturally going to have to charge more and thus risk alienating my current clientele.
Click to expand...

Firstly, you cannot compare Epic or Alexa which both belong to the group of top tier cinema cameras to the BMC 4k camera. Alexa and Epic are proven production workhorses in the industry. Both have an impressive record of international productions. Both are "real" cameras with an usable form factor and things like a proper EVF which "real" DOP need. They allow for TC synced sound any "real" production is using, they can be over-cranked to an very usable extend, both have a proven colour science and a known workflow in post. All that is the BMC 4k currently camera missing.

Secondly, your clientele might grow with you. It's obvious that Red, Arri, Sony and to some extend Canon (C500) share the top-end market. This might change some time but not in the next 2 years. Until then it should be possible for you to earn the necessary ROi. If not, well, you might should re-think your business model.

The advice to upgrade to Epic soon and later to Dragon is good. The upgrade to Epic-X could be a test-field how your clients react on slightly higher rental fees that deliver considerable higher performance, such as over-crenked 4k, etc. When you are eligible to upgrade to Dragon the summer is over and by then you will know your market much better than you anticipation is now.

Hans
 
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