Epic Dragon vs Sony F65

[Christoffer Glans]

Leaving all dispute and bad stuff between companies, I'd like to talk about the pros and cons of the sensors and camera quality between these two. I've never really been a fan of Sony cameras, thought they, in lack of better terms, handled skintones like shit. But the F65 is really really nice and after seeing Oblivion, I was blown away by the final look.

But there are cons, it's big, it has a rather stupid and overly complex workflow on set etc. But how does the images compare to the Epic? And more important, although we don't have much to see from the new Dragon sensor, how does it compare to that (specswise)?

There are a lot of talks about Red not handling skintones great, but it's RAW so there must be ways to bring better looking skintones into the final grade. The F65 handles skintones great, the downsampling from 8K creates a superb 4K image.
I have only scratched the surface of the F65 so there might be others here who know more about it, but it would be nice to hear your thoughts about these two, their pros and cons.

I'm not after a flamewar, a war or a brawl or whatever, I'm just a professional looking for professional inputs on these two.

 

[David Collard]

Unfortunately, you are too early. The Red Dragon sensor is just shipping now.

Most Red users won't have the opportunity to shoot a feature like Oblivian, with its
inherent budget, in order to make a fair comparison between the F65 and the Red Dragon.

The Red camera is a fantastic tool and the new sensor will make it even more "dangerous".

After all is said and done, add the costs, the workflow and the basic need to craft a good story. Therein you'll find your answer.

 

[Bobby Farokhzad]

The fact the the F65 actually is an 8k camera is a subject of great debate. It does however produce great skin tones and great colors in general. Sony claims that the camera records in a color gamut that is greater than other cameras in the market. On paper, the Dragon should be better in everyway but as always, the proof is in the pudding.

 

[Björn Benckert]

It amazes me that the F65 here in stockholm is not put to more use. It's hardly ever rented. I do not see the workflow issues as that bad and normally DOP's do not care about workflow. It's for sure a really cool camera, that has a different sting to it then the overly used alexas.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Unfortunately, you are too early. The Red Dragon sensor is just shipping now.

Where?


Pat

 

[Timur Civan]

The F65 is awesome. BUT, in NYC you can rent one for $500 from the owner ops, and there is still zero demand. Sad really. Truth be told, for $500 i still wouldnt use one. Why when there is an epic or alexa?

 

[Justin O'Neill]

4k footage from both cameras will have been down-sampled (the F65 from 5.8k and Dragon from 6.1k) and will look great because of that. Nobody can test Dragon yet but RED always has delivered so I think we all expect it to be amazing image quality wise.

If you go off published specs, Dragon wins in every category, including sensor resolution. Ignore the "8k" and look at the megapixels for the F65: 17.7MP for active sensor area as opposed to 19.4 for Dragon.

RED is saying dynamic range for Dragon will 16+ as opposed to the F65's 14. If you shoot at 6k on Dragon the sensor area will be a bit larger than the F65: 30.7mm x 15.8mm for Dragon and 24.7mm x 13.1mm for the F65.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Most Red users won't have the opportunity to shoot a feature like Oblivian, with its
inherent budget, in order to make a fair comparison between the F65 and the Red Dragon.

Yeah, of course, but skin tones aren't that much different between Tom Cruise and other human beings

The fact the the F65 actually is an 8k camera is a subject of great debate. It does however produce great skin tones and great colors in general. Sony claims that the camera records in a color gamut that is greater than other cameras in the market. On paper, the Dragon should be better in everyway but as always, the proof is in the pudding.

No, it's not an 8K camera, it's a 4K camera that downsamples from 8K and it has a great effect on the final 4K output. If you were to shoot at 4K directly the final image would be much worser then the F65's final 4K image.

It amazes me that the F65 here in stockholm is not put to more use. It's hardly ever rented. I do not see the workflow issues as that bad and normally DOP's do not care about workflow. It's for sure a really cool camera, that has a different sting to it then the overly used alexas.

I think it's because no one here (yeah, I live here too understands it or dares it. There are only a few technically innovative people here on the high end side of digital cinema who dare to touch new stuff. There are a lot of people using Alexa because it's a "better camera", which is the usual stuff I hear, but in reality it's just because Alexa is an easy camera, you just have to point and shoot really (as an experienced cinematographer). Working with any other camera demands that you know more things then traditional cinematographers, working with Red cameras demand you to understand RAW. Basic thing to back up my opinion on this is that not many actually use Arri-RAW, it's almost always prores. F65 is a very complex camera and in Sweden DOP's tend to end up in situations where they actually need to know the workflow around the gear, it's not as hierarchical as other places and the experts are not always the hired person responsible. I've been in situations where the runner knows more about a camera workflow than the DIT hired, blame the internet

On paper, the Dragon should be better in everyway but as always, the proof is in the pudding.

The current sensor should also be raving, but as the original mysterium sensor the skin tones is still really hard to get into a nice shape. I've been trying to create some kind of LUT to "fix it", but without success, maybe because I'm not the most skilled colorist around. I've talked to a DOP friend of mine who's been looking into the F65 and he said something about the gammut getting into a superb shape after the downsampling from 8K to 4K on the F65, especially in the green areas and it makes the skin tones balanced in a way that isn't possible on the Mysterium-X sensor. If it's just about the downsampling then the 6K dragon should be able to get the same downsampling benefits right? If the color science is programmed to achieve it.
I'm gonna see if I could get a hold on a side to side shot between the F65 and Dragon when it arrives and then I'm gonna try and create a pregrade LUT for the Dragon sensor to match the F65 (if the dragon is inferior to the F65 that is).

 

[Justin O'Neill]

it's a 4K camera that downsamples from 8K and it has a great effect on the final 4K output.

It's actually downsampling from more like 5.8k. Notice Sony always says it's an 8k x 2k sensor. That is a 4:1 aspect ratio which is impossible since the footage is actually 17:9. It's better to think of the F65 as a 17.7MP sensor down-sampled to 8.8MP and the Dragon a 19.4MP sensor down-sampled to 8.8MP. (4096 x 2160 = 8.8MP).

 

[Charles_Z]

It's actually downsampling from more like 5.8k. Notice Sony always says it's an 8k x 2k sensor. That is a 4:1 aspect ratio which is impossible since the footage is actually 17:9. It's better to think of the F65 as a 17.7MP sensor down-sampled to 8.8MP and the Dragon a 19.4MP sensor down-sampled to 8.8MP. (4096 x 2160 = 8.8MP).

Yeah Sony definitively states the F65 has 8192x2160 resolution which is pretty bizarre for a 17:9 (DCI) aspect ratio. My guess is that the pixels are twice as tall as they are wide, which allows you to double up on horizontal resolution.

 

[David Collard]

Where?


Pat

Some pre-selected users were being "dragoned" at the NAB. I have no clue who they are or whether they got their cameras, but you get my point.

Skin tone comparisons are a unique and valid issue that is not determined by budget, but when a movie like "Oblivian" is exampled, it presumes a comparison
of big budget to big budget.

 

[Justin O'Neill]

Yeah Sony definitively states the F65 has 8192x2160 resolution which is pretty bizarre for a 17:9 (DCI) aspect ratio. My guess is that the pixels are twice as tall as they are wide, which allows you to double up on horizontal resolution.

That is an interesting thought but it seems like the vertical resolution would be sub 2k after debayer which would have to effect the quality of the image. I wrote a little post on what they are likely doing to get the 8k number: I wish I could take full credit but this was pointed out to me by people in the know. www.camerarentalz.com/sony-f65-6k-sensor

 

[Charles_Z]

That is an interesting thought but it seems like the vertical resolution would be sub 2k after debayer which would have to effect the quality of the image. I wrote a little post on what they are likely doing to get the 8k number: I wish I could take full credit but this was pointed out to me by people in the know. www.camerarentalz.com/sony-f65-6k-sensor

Your explanation there is pretty illuminating. My concern with a diagonal CFA orientation is that you now have triangular "gaps" all along the edges of the sensor walls. I wonder how that affects debayering methods, unless they have extra "active" pixels next to the 8192x2160 recorded which supply color filter metadata to aid in debayering.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

That is an interesting thought but it seems like the vertical resolution would be sub 2k after debayer which would have to effect the quality of the image. I wrote a little post on what they are likely doing to get the 8k number: I wish I could take full credit but this was pointed out to me by people in the know. www.camerarentalz.com/sony-f65-6k-sensor

I'm not a technician although I know a bit of technology, but doesn't a tilted sensor/diamond shaped pixel array that's later debayered perhaps create a more organic look in comparision to a more traditional rectangular array?

Even though it's falsely marketed as a 8K camera, the images still look good and the way the camera, as the guy in the comments on that page says, handles the green, red and blue channels really makes it a good competitor to the Epic Dragon whatever initial resolution the F65 have. After all the math is done I still have a hard time making those skin tones pleasent looking on the current Epic. The Dragon sensor is all good on paper but if it handles colors in the same way I will still struggle with it.
The color science right now is very good compared to when the first Red One was released, but I think there might be room for a lot of improvement on how Red handles the raw files.

If there is a way to make the fourth version of the color science better in the area of skin tones that would be great for Red. I think that it's the achilles heel of the Red system compared to other systems and I know a lot of DOP's that agree upon that.

Skin tone comparisons are a unique and valid issue that is not determined by budget, but when a movie like "Oblivian" is exampled, it presumes a comparison
of big budget to big budget.

In that case the most expensive thing on Oblivion must have been the make up
I think that light is still light, makeup is still makeup and shooting outside in daylight is still the same whatever the budget. Either they had the best colorist that's ever walked on this planet or the camera was really good at how it treated the colors in it's inital raw state.
Either way, the F65 is really a killer when it comes to colors and as of now, Red is lacking a bit in it's color handling. The DR, the resolution, HDRx etc. is all good, but I still have a problem grading those images, because whatever I do I never seem to reach nice looking skin tones. It's either about grading it to an extreme look where skin tones doesn't matter that much, or to accept the odd looking faces.

 

[luigivaltulini]

Either way, the F65 is really a killer when it comes to colors and as of now, Red is lacking a bit in it's color handling. The DR, the resolution, HDRx etc. is all good, but I still have a problem grading those images, because whatever I do I never seem to reach nice looking skin tones. It's either about grading it to an extreme look where skin tones doesn't matter that much, or to accept the odd looking faces.

Ciao Christoffer,
why not try to use Alexa, f65 and Apic to do a little test on the skintone.
Same point machine the same situation, and then make some grabs on reduser come here and see what you can do, it would be interesting for everyone.
I think, indeed I am sure that you would notice little difference, you know Alexa out of the box produces better colors, maybe it does also the f65 I do not know, but I can guarantee that a good colorist has no problem to give a great look to your Epic.
Dragon will be 'a great sensor for the coming years, now we must wait for the first images and video that will come very soon.

Luigi

 

[Dave Blackham]

Assuming the pixels are square it should not matter what orientation they are in. Ideally I think you would want a sensor that crops vertically to give you suitable aspect ratio so no horizontal cop is applied. So the Sony pixel map seems odd to me.

Id also sugest the discussion to widen to the F55, whats its market rate. What do people think of it ?

 

[Rehan K]

Ciao Christoffer,
why not try to use Alexa, f65 and Apic to do a little test on the skintone.
Luigi

https://vimeo.com/47582731#

 

[Mark K.]

The biggest advantage of the F65 as I understand it, is the depth of its 16-bit linear raw files. They can be pushed and pulled 8 ways from Sunday. It's a tremendous camera... but the problem is it's a tremendous camera. And once people have moved away from the size, weight and form-factor of big berthas like the Millennium XL et al. it's hard to convince them to come back.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

... but the problem is it's a tremendous camera. And once people have moved away from the size, weight and form-factor of big berthas like the Millennium XL et al. it's hard to convince them to come back.

The camera is not even so heavy as it looks. I've seen too many Epic setups that are much heavier than the F65. Like if it wouldn't bother DP's to have weight to carry arround... oh,, I forgot there are allways a bunch of Sherpas/AC for that purpose.

My (handheld or stick) setup is 8kg fully loaded with a 190wh battery.

Pat

 

[shashbugu]

The F65 will certainly not be considered a heavy camera, not even for hand held work. Believe it or not, its actually ergonomically built to be operated by a single individual (well, so says Sony). Its easy and intuitive focusing system makes it a more point and shoot friendly camera than the Epic is. But surely no high end camera is easier to operate than the Arri Alexa. Although the Alexa is heavy, the proximity to all frequently needed buttons, even the menu control built on the evf make it a breeze to control.