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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

EPIC audio meters are very unusual

Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock

Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock

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Is ist just me who finds the Epic's audio meter characteristics very unusual?
The noise floor meters quite hight and the peaks are very sudden and ... ahm.... peaky.

Not like any audio meter I have (and I have lots of them).

I'm not talking about sound quality, just the visual of the meters.

Jochen
 
We've also had our meters stop working occasionally when using WC's Abox. Unplugging them and plugging them back in usually gets it going again, but thought I'd mention it in case others run into this problem.

I hope RED does put a little work into audio soon. The delay in headphone outs is annoying and the volume levels are pretty low. Hopefully these are easy fixes, but they would make a huge difference on set.

Thx.
 
Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock said:
Is ist just me who finds the Epic's audio meter characteristics very unusual?
The noise floor meters quite hight and the peaks are very sudden and ... ahm.... peaky.

Not like any audio meter I have (and I have lots of them).

I'm not talking about sound quality, just the visual of the meters.

Jochen
Click to expand...

Quite likely they're 'Peak Program Meters' which register peak levels versus VU levels which don't. PPMs might be installed to stop digital audio overload/distortion, which can't be repaired.

But the problem with PPM levels is, you might record a lower level audio that you intend, based on reading sudden peaks when setting levels.

The manual should explain something about this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_programme_meter

My vote would be for VU meters which also register peak LEDS.

Cheers.
 
I agree, the Red metering characteristics seem non-standard and unintuitive. There's not a lot of data on them in the manual. I also believe there's not a lot of headroom in the analog input section, and it's prone to overload very easily. For this reason, I've always advised my clients to only rely on Red audio as backup, not for primary sound.

I say the same thing about all digital cameras, so this is not just a criticism of Red.
 
Allan Black said:
My vote would be for VU meters which also register peak LEDS.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

I agree. The standard is VU metering with a nice red clipping indicator.

Setting the correct level for a 24bit signal is normally very easy since you have so much usable room above the noise floor.
But it isn't with the current metering.

Jochen
 
Allan Black said:
Quite likely they're 'Peak Program Meters' which register peak levels versus VU levels which don't. PPMs might be installed to stop digital audio overload/distortion, which can't be repaired.



My vote would be for VU meters which also register peak LEDS.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

Respectfully, I dont agree. PPM's are by far the best meter to use. I dont know how the Epic meters perform but a PPM gets my vote. I would go with peak hold indicator though
 
IMO it really depends on how, where and what country you started off in the industry.

I've trained audio engineers and found PPMs take a bit of getting used to, some folk get off to a bad start (read stuffing up a job) and never get to like them.

The primary problem with digital camera audio meters is, an audio recording engineer is not keeping watch on the meters all the time, so after the levels are set, they tend to be forgotten.

The ideal would be VU switchable to PPM with a good a set of in/out audio limiters.
Never gonna happen, even tho sound is 70% of what you see.

Cheers.
 
Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock said:
Is ist just me who finds the Epic's audio meter characteristics very unusual?
The noise floor meters quite hight and the peaks are very sudden and ... ahm.... peaky.

Not like any audio meter I have (and I have lots of them).

I'm not talking about sound quality, just the visual of the meters.

Jochen
Click to expand...

They are unusual for a camera of this quality in that they suck. I've been railing about this for three years, still hoping the Pro I/O will provide decent metering, but looks like not. Audio is an afterthought at Red; they are aiming at a market that uses double system.
 
James Brundige said:
They are unusual for a camera of this quality in that they suck. I've been railing about this for three years, still hoping the Pro I/O will provide decent metering, but looks like not. Audio is an afterthought at Red; they are aiming at a market that uses double system.
Click to expand...

Sadly you're right there. Cinema style is definitely their priority. :sad:
 
Allan Black said:
IMO it really depends on how, where and what country you started off in the industry.

I've trained audio engineers and found PPMs take a bit of getting used to, some folk get off to a bad start (read stuffing up a job) and never get to like them.

The primary problem with digital camera audio meters is, an audio recording engineer is not keeping watch on the meters all the time, so after the levels are set, they tend to be forgotten.

The ideal would be VU switchable to PPM with a good a set of in/out audio limiters.
Never gonna happen, even tho sound is 70% of what you see.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

I beg to differ. They are just bad, too few segments, really jumpy, hard to read. Solution will be to stack a mix-pre onto the Pro I/O. Better solution would be to have a module with decent meters (and pots) built in. There are so many one and two man crews out there in the non-Hollywood world. I've shot years that way, and it's so important to be able to glance at the camera to check that' audio is OK. When you are in a docu situation, and reacting to things that are moving fast, that's key.
 
Marc Wielage said:
I agree, the Red metering characteristics seem non-standard and unintuitive. There's not a lot of data on them in the manual. I also believe there's not a lot of headroom in the analog input section, and it's prone to overload very easily. For this reason, I've always advised my clients to only rely on Red audio as backup, not for primary sound.

I say the same thing about all digital cameras, so this is not just a criticism of Red.
Click to expand...

My Sony EX-1 audio section is far easier to use. I often use it as a sound recorder for Red, and get an alternate angle as well. This will be solved eventually, maybe by module, maybe by third party. Until then, double system is best.
 
RED should offer both average and peak metering in one bar like Dorrough does (best audio meters in the business)

280D-380D_01.jpg
 
I REALLY wish, RED would partner with Sound Devices and produce a solid high quality audio IO unit for their cameras. Many people don't have the budget to spend on a dedicated sound recordist, especially if you're shooting basic interview setups. Also the syncing sound in post takes more time and ultimately adds costs.

We're basically looking for a Mix Pre that is customised for Epic/Scarlet - time RED really sorted the audio side of their cameras as we're now way down the line and don't need excuses. Full broadcast spec sound onboard cameras today is a given and I urge RED to address the criticisms that are thrown their way in terms of audio quality/performance.

Scott
 
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