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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

EPIC and Alexa...

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Normally only ever seen by the naked eye, interpret that as you like! ;)

Michael
DSC Labs

Graeme Nattress said:
It's actually what that particular chart looks like close up - it's a bit streaky. We thought we had an issue until we examined the chart carefully and saw the lines in the chart!

Graeme
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ronx said:
yeah, Jim already said that .. please could you post a link to some HQ 1:1 versions/crops, because I'm preferring the overall DR of the Alexa based on these charts, significantly. If I shouldn't be, please reducate me..

Epic wins on resolution, but that is secondary to me. I do believe resolution is important, especially with a cfa, but don't believe even full on iMax screens can display more than HD res. frankly, in a meaningful way. Based on current television technology.. I can't even go there..

..its for flexibility, such as panning in post, and general oversampling in my mind, and to satisfy niquist. I realise the charts are all 2k, but those "streaks" are doing you a dis-service if thats the whole picture, or the fact they're underexposed is




I have no doubt, but the low resolution is not helping gain anything meaningful from these charts, and the streaks are confusing it further, making it all a slightly pointless exercise
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One thing to keep in mind... EPIC is a prototype right now. We have some room to improve. Also... we tried to emulate their Log C. While I think we did a fairly good job at that... we probably could tune that up a bit as well.

Jim
 
Michael Wiegand said:
I misspoke, as I dislike the term "normal". So, heretofore unseen, other than by the naked eye.
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It's a resolution chart and a DR chart.

I should work in marketing!

In all seriousness, thanks again to Jim and RED for all their work on these cameras. The last couple of weeks have me very exciting and saving steadily. :beer:

EDIT: And it's also very nice to have DSC representing on the boards - nice to meet you Michael!
 
Jannard said:
One thing to keep in mind... EPIC is a prototype right now. We have some room to improve. Also... we tried to emulate their Log C. While I think we did a fairly good job at that... we probably could tune that up a bit as well.

Jim
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Already in my mind.. and I expect you to be improving things continually until you die, not because I deserve it, but because you care about it and.. frankly I know you can't help yourselves ;)

I had too many clients ignore me in the early days with the R1..trusting LCDs and metadata, me saying "you need more light", them saying "why can't I raise the ISO to 1000?", me saying "its just misleading you", them saying "but I can't see the LCD?", me saying "because you need more light!" etc ..then finding myself in the same night location, repeating the night before, with 50% of the extra light we needed the night before, because of streaks and old habits breaking hard.

I really want lower light ability, personally, and I know it will help many of my clients on busy shoots, especially when budgets are tight, or tiny, and lights and daylight short on the ground.

Anyway, rental aside.. I hate streaks (except in bacon). I'll except any kind of noise except streaks. Any zone with streaks in gets struck off my measurements, except maybe the first time they occur, if only very faint signs of them are visible. Even then my HVS module rejects/and probably amplifies them. Maybe I need a new brain. Hence my worries.

Why I haven't been given the opportunity to download an mx R3D file from a Red server yet, I don't know.. I've never seen one..it would tell me more than those jpegs? unless I missed that

ps, Mr Lohman sir, hows the R3D trimming progressing?
 
resolution vs. dynamic range

resolution vs. dynamic range

When you are comparing two cameras with very different resolution levels, and slightly different dynamic range, and you decide that you like dynamic range more than resolution, isn't it possible to (for example) underexpose the higher-resolution camera by one stop, thereby gaining 1 stop in headroom, and then do some low-pass filtering on the darker values reducing both resolution and noise level, and get better overall dynamic range while still preserving full resolution in the mids and highlights? And still be at least as good as the lower-res camera in the darks? Might be an interesting experiment, anyway.
 
Jannard said:
One thing to keep in mind... EPIC is a prototype right now. We have some room to improve. Also... we tried to emulate their Log C. While I think we did a fairly good job at that... we probably could tune that up a bit as well.

Jim
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Which is why I would love to see the same chart in RED Color / RED Gamma...

:sifone: Peter
 
David M said:
Oh please, let's not drag THAT old chestnut out of the fire.
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You didn't read my post.. did you? I already said in more than one of my posts in this thread, including the one you directly responded to, that there's no such thing as too much resolution. I was just pointing out one situation where people foolishly make a big deal out of it. And as cheesy as it sounds, I've encountered that very scenario on several occasions.

Oh well....
 
Good thing is that you have some really good choices now... the digital options weren't very good just a few short years ago.

I like that there are companies leap-frogging each other with a feature or advantage which forces all the companies that want to play to step it up or get left behind. Our program is modular in anticipation of this happening. Just remember, it isn't only who is in the lead today... it is who is deciding now to be a leader in the future.

Jim
 
One observation... I'd suggest that one consider spending less time analyzing the charts to death and more time trying to figure out how to get the most out of whatever tool they have chosen to use. We provide charts to help people understand the differences in their options...

Jim
 
Jannard said:
Good thing is that you have some really good choices now... the digital options weren't very good just a few short years ago.

I like that there are companies leap-frogging each other with a feature or advantage which forces all the companies that want to play to step it up or get left behind. Our program is modular in anticipation of this happening. Just remember, it isn't only who is in the lead today... it is who is deciding now to be a leader in the future.

Jim
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Took the words out of my mouth. These are exciting times, no matter who kicks the door down, lets keep breaking through! I appreciate charts, but in the end I did not buy my 1st RED by looking at a chart...take a look at some of the magic people are capturing, some of the stories that are being told...then choose what works for you! Waiting patiently for EPIC to arrive. :beer: ;)
 
Jannard said:
One observation... I'd suggest that one consider spending less time analyzing the charts to death and more time trying to figure out how to get the most out of whatever tool they have chosen to use. We provide charts to help people understand the differences in their options...

Jim
Click to expand...

Good point Jim.

I think - still - it may be good advice to do some tests of cameras and workflows to maximise what you can make out of each tool. You'll obviously have a hard time to get 120 fps @ any res from Alexa, but as these cams will be used extensively both together and individually on a wild variety of sets, I think still it is good advice to do tests.

None of what I've seen so far does tell me a lot, though - except that both camerasystems are very good - which they ough to be... -:)
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
You didn't read my post.. did you? I already said in more than one of my posts in this thread, including the one you directly responded to, that there's no such thing as too much resolution. I was just pointing out one situation where people foolishly make a big deal out of it. And as cheesy as it sounds, I've encountered that very scenario on several occasions.

Oh well....
Click to expand...

Sorry I didn't mean it like that.
Actually I originally started out with: "Yeah, please don't drag that old chestnet out..." etc
However the doorbell rang before I managed to finish tidying up the post before submitting and I had to go out on an errand, and I didn't get back to it until about 7 hours later, when I realized the computer was still on. I hurriedly patched it and sent it off.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Good point Jim.

I think - still - it may be good advice to do some tests of cameras and workflows to maximise what you can make out of each tool. You'll obviously have a hard time to get 120 fps @ any res from Alexa, but as these cams will be used extensively both together and individually on a wild variety of sets, I think still it is good advice to do tests.

None of what I've seen so far does tell me a lot, though - except that both camerasystems are very good - which they ough to be... -:)
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As I have reports that RED MX has exceptional success at German rental market Alexa still has to find its way to get in the same stage.

Another reports telling us that Alexa has still beta production status because ProRes 4444 and ArriRaw are not enabled.

If ProRes 4444 would be easy to get recorded on those Sony SxS card speed we would get it on AJA KiPro drives before.

That means still stay one big doubt if ever will be 100% implemented.

All other things like those fake comparative tests around Alexa are just sort of marketing smoke curtain effects.
 
Although Alexa is really a great camera, I think the next Arri models will be 4k but at that point Red will be already beyond 5k.
 
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