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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Enter the Dragon

Noah Yuan-Vogel said:
I still think they should have a mode that always shoots at 120fps (maybe at 5k, and maybe also 240fps at 4k) with an open shutter (1/120th at 120fps) and allows you to choose your shutter speed and framerate with metadata in post, since frame combining or decimating on playback would losslessly make that footage available as 24, 30, 40, 60, or 120fps with options of 1/120th, 1/60th, 1/40th, 1/30th, 1/24th sec shutters. 240fps would add the options of framerate and shutter values of 240, 80, and 48. At very least that could really be useful for stock footage shooters who want to make their footage available in many framerates at once, and for stills people who want to preserve a fast shutter version of their frames.

It would also reduce noise (a side effect of frame combining) at shutter speeds slower than 1/120th sec, not that Dragon would need a reduction in noise... but it doesnt hurt.

Only downside is you'd probably always have to light for 1/120th sec, but then that might be nice for people who dont want to have to use as much ND in day ext's.
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Noah, I was thinking the same...and with a RedCine-X option to manage the motion blur created by frame combining...for me it's very important to keep it for 24fps/25fps footage.
I really like the "classic" motion blurred 24fps 180º look, despite the recent moves toward a sharper 48fps/60fps standard...
 
Tommaso Alvisi said:
Noah, I was thinking the same...and with a RedCine-X option to manage the motion blur created by frame combining...for me it's very important to keep it for 24fps/25fps footage.
I really like the "classic" motion blurred 24fps 180º look, despite the recent moves toward a sharper 48fps/60fps standard...
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Yeah the only issue is you can only get 1/40th or 1/60th sec shutter from 120fps open shutter frames. You'd need 240fps to make 48 an option.

For example from 120fps footage you can just use every 5th frame to get 24fps 1/120th sec, and then combine 2 or 3 adjacent frames to get the 1/40th or 1/60th sec shutter. Decimating to lower framerate and then combining frames to lower shutter speed.

120fps would be good for having footage that simultaneously works at all NTSC framerates and 24fps, but 96fps might make more sense for digital cinema, since it might be possible to do it at 6k and would give the option of framerates and shutters with speeds of 96, 48, 32, and 24 from the same footage. Seems like that could be very useful for those who want to use HFR and have overcrank options but want to protect for normal framerates and don't want to have to sacrifice preferred shutter speeds.

The other benefit of this is that there is not really an exposure difference between the high and low shutter derived material, where with HDRx you always have an exposure discrepancy between the fast exposure and the slow exposure frames.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Bits and stops don't need to corolate directly.
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Except they do in most ADC's, which are linear. I'm getting a feeling of deja vu all of a sudden :)

But yes, perhaps RED is using non-linear ADCs, analog gamma correction, dual-gain, or dual-ADCs all of which are not the norm but seem to be more common lately for overcoming amplifier and ADC limitations.
 
OK lets be conservative and assume 18 stops DR for Dragon. I have a scene under a large awning on a sunny day with ambient light levels under the awning metering at say f4. If I expose my camera with 5 stops of its latitude for the shadows thats leaving me 13 stops for the highlights. Thats a clip point for the highlights that have a F Stop of 360. WTF ! I dont think I have metered anything brighter than f90 in my life. Could my maths correct?
 
Noah Yuan-Vogel said:
Except they do in most ADC's, which are linear. I'm getting a feeling of deja vu all of a sudden :)
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Deja vu indeed. And yes, some ADC's for image processors are designed that way. But there is no universal law that says they must be. And as DR increases, it makes less sense to tie the two together in a bits for stops fashion.
 
Noah Yuan-Vogel said:
I still think they should have a mode that always shoots at 120fps [...] At very least that could really be useful for stock footage shooters who want to make their footage available in many framerates at once, and for stills people who want to preserve a fast shutter version of their frames.
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Great idea! This makes so much sense. Okay, so it will eat power and storage, but at least it's one more option.

Jarred, I'd like to suggest a feature for Dragon (and even MX in the EPIC if it's possible). The idea is to get lower resolution RAW files without windowing and without line-skipping - and without debayering. How? Easy - on Dragon, you could have a 3K mode which simply combines every 2x2 BG/GR photosite matrix into one output pixel. It's much less processing than debayering, right? And the output files would be super sharp.

The only catch is that you can't select arbitrary resolutions. However, 3K is not a bad compromise - it makes great 2K output as well as being comparable to (but not necessarily compatible with) native 4K acquisition when up-scaled to 4K.

You might be able to do a 2K mode which combines every 3x3 matrix, although each 3x3 matrix will be mismatched to the ones either side of it.

EDIT: I cannot wait to see Kodak's response. :yesnod:
 
Denis Murin said:
Kodak is not dead yet, they were making some laser IMAX projectors last year.
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Kodak is not making laser projectors.. they just have some patents that IMAX was licensing to allow Barco to make projectors for them.
 
Shervin Mandgaryan said:
Thick exhaust pipes with shooting flames out the back... How else would you channel the fire coming off a 6k sensor?
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The Dragon sensor actually uses less power ( i.e. heat ) than the current EPIC sensor. New tech.
 
Jarred Land said:
The Dragon sensor actually uses less power ( i.e. heat ) than the current EPIC sensor. New tech.
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That's great news!! I know I probably won't get a response to this, but any developments in redvolts and power usage on Dragon?
 
Bob Gundu said:
God all mighty! That's amazing. I was worried I had to wear a face mask like Bane to operate the Dragon.
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Oh my, I just pictured Bane as a camera operator ("Your shooting conditions must be more severe..."), thanks to Red and the new technology this won't be the case. :)
 
Sergio Perez said:
Sergio's wish list:

- Higher frame rates in 5K (200 fps possible?), 4K (300fps) and 3K (400fps)
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I don't know if new sensor means better framerates for existing resolutions but 400fps at 3K and 300fps at 4K would make the camera even better for action sports!
 
vincent kardasik said:
I don't know if new sensor means better framerates for existing resolutions but 400fps at 3K and 300fps at 4K would make the camera even better for action sports!
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Exactly (That's one of my selfish desires since I shoot those professionally :)
 
Jarred Land said:
Scarlet users should be doing backflips :) It has been one of the biggest requests from Scarlet owners to be able to trade up to an Epic.. and that was before we knew just how significant Dragon has become :)
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Thanks Jarred! Yes, I am doing backflips!!! And there will be a whole lot more backflips if there is an option of upgrading to Epic-X first and then Dragon later, ie two stage upgrade!!
 
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