ENG and Cinema...

[Curran Giddens]

Look at RED in terms of evolution. If we throw some bacteria into boiling water, they will all die. But if we put them in a hotsprings where one side is cool and the other side boiling then some of them will evolve over time to tolerate more and more heat. 4K is for me boiling water, we want to be there but we need to evolve into it. I think that could happen very fast, like in two years. But evolution doesn't occur without a gradient, the slope of the beach we crawled up.

I like how you used the evolution of extremophiles as an analogy for Red 4k. Interesting....

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

Wow ibloom, quite off the deep end there. :blink:

 

[David Battistella]

We fully acknowledge the importance of ENG uses of RED ONE. We just want to make sure we deliver what is needed, not just what is asked for.

This is a healthy discussion that we are watching closely.

Jim

Jim,

I agree that you have included much in the camera to satisfy some ENG/EFP requirements, but I beleive that a traditional ENG, EFP DP who has shot mostly Betacam, HDCAM or Panny products may not warm to RED as quickly as the film set. They will have to get used to not having many of the onboard features they are used to in these camera's.

ND, for example will not be a twirl of a dial, white balance will not be quite the same and "most" of these camera's come with a fixed zoom lens, zebra's in the viewfinder, etc. All of these things are handled differently with the RED camera. For anyone who has never worked with film, it will be an eye opener. You've made that pretty clear.

So if we are talking about what is needed, in this sea of digital technology, it is preciscley what your team set out to do: create a digital cinema camera.

It would be great if what you were proposing was a plug and play type camera like many sony and panny products AND a digital cinema camera that replaces film, but I think that this whole thing comes down to your vision for RED and not just the ability to shoot many formats, especially if the post workflows are in place to handle 4K REDCODE out of the gate.

Make this first release the best camera it can be. I mean, if we compare this digital camera to "any" other video camera that shoots speed, you have already broken that barrier by either 36fps (2k@96) or 60fps (120fps@720P). How can we be arguing over how great the inventions is when it is already surpassing any digital imaging device the records moving pictures?

A tricked out RED is still about 1/3rd the price of what a Betacam package was ten years ago, which means 1/3rd LESS time to replace your investment and MUCH less risk than in the past.

What is needed not the Swiss Army knife camera but the camera you have created, dedicated to capturing the best digital moving images for now and into the future.

Thanks for listening and monitoring this, it shows great respect for your future customers and their craft.

David

 

[Steve Gibby]

ND, for example will not be a twirl of a dial, white balance will not be quite the same and "most" of these camera's come with a fixed zoom lens, zebra's in the viewfinder, etc. All of these things are handled differently with the RED camera. For anyone who has never worked with film, it will be an eye opener. You've made that pretty clear.

ND on RED One is as easy as dropping NDs into a matte box, something cine shooters are used to, or screwing NDs onto a lens, something DSLR shooters are used to. No rocket science involved there for TV/video shooters to transition to. White balance is simple and straightforward in RED: baked in RGB modes like TV/video cameras, and adjustable in post with RAW, something DSLR shooters are already used to. It's film shooters that aren't used to white balance. Most of what cameras have a fixed zoom lens? 1/3" cameras? Most pro TV/video shooters shoot on 2/3" camera systems that have detachable lenses that are shot mostly in manual modes. RED has zebras in the viewfinder just like TV/video cameras. RED also has histograms just like DSLRs have. RED also has a focus assist function like many TV/video cameras have. RED One's WB, zebra, histogram, and focus assist functions are viewable in the periphery of RED One's EVF and LCD - just like on TV/video cameras. Film cameras don't have zebras, histograms, or focus assist functions, so I'd say film guys have a lot to learn when adopting RED One - electronic technology. RED One's technology pedigree is most like a DSLR, relatively similar to a TV/video camera, and least like a film camera - except in some lenses used. What Jim was referring to in the learning curve for RED One was 35mm DOF, but IMO the rest of the electronic technology of RED One will be more of a challenge to learn for a mechanical workflow film-background only guy than a TV/Video and/or DSLR guy. DSLR guys are also used to working with 35mm DOF so that's no surprise to them in transitioning to RED One.

So if we are talking about what is needed, in this sea of digital technology, it is preciscley what your team set out to do: create a digital cinema camera.

Actually by their own words from the very beginning they set out to create a D-cinema camera that was also intended for extensive EFP work. Read my post #72 on this thread same thread for some background and links to info and verification of that. Take it to the bank from someone (Me) who has been on the RED scene from day one - I could post pages of links to prove my statement on that. Now if RED is changing their position at the very end of the development of RED One, that's their prerogative, but if you analyze Jim’s thread-opening post, he did the opposite, he re-affirmed RED’s commitment to the EFP (& ENG) capabilities of RED One.

What is needed not the Swiss Army knife camera but the camera you have created

Ah…which is and was always planned as a Swiss Army Knife of a camera. In fact, that’s an analogy I used, and Jim agreed with in my published interview with him (3/06) that I posted the link to in my Post #72 of this thread. Read that interview David, and I think you’ll get the true flick on what RED was planned as in the beginning, and keep in mind that various RED Team members have reaffirmed RED One’s additional EFP utility throughout the 20 month development cycle of RED One.


Side note
I was an invited attendee to the very first RED One camera specification meeting at Oakley headquarters in December 2005. I’m under NDA for what I submitted to that meeting, but my heavy-EFP professional background is published on my web site, and I can tell you that I submitted suggestions for RED One that were both cine and EFP oriented, as you could easily guess. BTW, that meeting was an incredible think tank…one of the highlights of my 30-year professional career. It was a total rush for sure...and I really enjoyed the experience!

I respect the heck out of RED Team…all of them…for the endless hours of work they’ve put into RED One, the lenses, and accessories. IMO they’ve accomplished the impossible…especially in such a short period of time.

 

[Proteus]

I agree with Gibby, Haakon and others about the importance of 1080p and 60 fps from full sensor.

If the end product is 1080p with slo-mo, 1080p60 (as in my case) , or simply 1080 @ 50i/60i with smooth motion, there is one more advantage for scaled (full sensor) use:
It will be a lot better for green screen work since each individual pixel will include all the color information. This -of course, provided that the artifacts from REDCODE compression will be minimal. Also, I believe that scaled 1080p will prove to be sharper and much less noisy than 2k windowed.

My own priorities and preferences are:

-60p
-Full sensor
-4k
-1080p

EDIT: I just read Jannard's response, so personally I would be happy with 2K @ 60 scaled instead of 1080.

 

[Jannard]

My own priorities and preferences are:

-60p
-Full sensor
-4k
-1080p

Would you settle for:

60P, Full sensor
-4K
-2K

Jim

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

Ahh I love it.

 

[Proteus]

Would you settle for:

60P, Full sensor
-4K
-2K

Jim

Yes, of course!!!
(we wrote at the same time)

 

[Steve Gibby]

A few minutes ago Jim Jannard started another thread with a verification that RED One CAN do 2k scaled RAW @60fps to CF or RED Drive. Yes, that's not a mis-print...2k scaled RAW @60fps in camera is now possible. Wow...that adds a whole different light to the scaled RGB 1080p/60 requests for sure.

Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3538

The possibilities just got a lot better for scaled full sensor in camera @60fps

EDIT: Just saw Jim's post that beat mine...I'm a slow typist!

 

[Rogelio Salinas]

Would you settle for:

60P, Full sensor
-4K
-2K

Jim

35mm sensor with 60P for both 4K and 2K on a CF or Red Drive. Amazing! If 1080P and 720P were dropped completely would it be possible to get 4K 60P and 2K 100P, but I believe that just being able to get 60P on 4K would be the answer to many of our prayers. What the heck just drop 2K altogether and just allow 4K 100fps. With Redcine, we can always downrez to 2K, 1080P, and 720P. Keep the good news coming Jim.

 

[Gregory Leno]

Would you settle for:

60P, Full sensor
-4K
-2K

Jim

Are both of those recording on the RED drive and CF at 60p?

 

[Jannard]

I am now double-checking myself after a post on the other thread. Hold that thought.

Jim

 

[David Battistella]

ND on RED One is as easy as dropping NDs into a matte box, something cine shooters are used to, or screwing NDs onto a lens, something DSLR shooters are used to. No rocket science involved there for TV/video shooters to transition to. White balance is simple and straightforward in RED: baked in RGB modes like TV/video cameras, and adjustable in post with RAW, something DSLR shooters are already used to. It's film shooters that aren't used to white balance. Most of what cameras have a fixed zoom lens? 1/3" cameras? Most pro TV/video shooters shoot on 2/3" camera systems that have detachable lenses that are shot mostly in manual modes. RED has zebras in the viewfinder just like TV/video cameras. RED also has histograms just like DSLRs have. RED also has a focus assist function like many TV/video cameras have. RED One's WB, zebra, histogram, and focus assist functions are viewable in the periphery of RED One's EVF and LCD - just like on TV/video cameras. Film cameras don't have zebras, histograms, or focus assist functions, so I'd say film guys have a lot to learn when adopting RED One - electronic technology. RED One's technology pedigree is most like a DSLR, relatively similar to a TV/video camera, and least like a film camera - except in some lenses used. What Jim was referring to in the learning curve for RED One was 35mm DOF, but IMO the rest of the electronic technology of RED One will be more of a challenge to learn for a mechanical workflow film-background only guy than a TV/Video and/or DSLR guy. DSLR guys are also used to working with 35mm DOF so that's no surprise to them in transitioning to RED One.




Actually by their own words from the very beginning they set out to create a D-cinema camera that was also intended for extensive EFP work. Read my post #72 on this thread same thread for some background and links to info and verification of that. Take it to the bank from someone (Me) who has been on the RED scene from day one - I could post pages of links to prove my statement on that. Now if RED is changing their position at the very end of the development of RED One, that's their prerogative, but if you analyze Jim’s thread-opening post, he did the opposite, he re-affirmed RED’s commitment to the EFP (& ENG) capabilities of RED One.




Ah…which is and was always planned as a Swiss Army Knife of a camera. In fact, that’s an analogy I used, and Jim agreed with in my published interview with him (3/06) that I posted the link to in my Post #72 of this thread. Read that interview David, and I think you’ll get the true flick on what RED was planned as in the beginning, and keep in mind that various RED Team members have reaffirmed RED One’s additional EFP utility throughout the 20 month development cycle of RED One.


Side note
I was an invited attendee to the very first RED One camera specification meeting at Oakley headquarters in December 2005. I’m under NDA for what I submitted to that meeting, but my heavy-EFP professional background is published on my web site, and I can tell you that I submitted suggestions for RED One that were both cine and EFP oriented, as you could easily guess. BTW, that meeting was an incredible think tank…one of the highlights of my 30-year professional career. It was a total rush for sure...and I really enjoyed the experience!

I respect the heck out of RED Team…all of them…for the endless hours of work they’ve put into RED One, the lenses, and accessories. IMO they’ve accomplished the impossible…especially in such a short period of time.

Gibby,

I appreciate your insights and I was not intending to defame ENG or EFP DP's, I was talking more about a wide majority who are less accustomed to film style workflows with the camera.

There is no doubt that you are at the top of your game and that does not mean you can be compared to the scores of TV/ENG , news crew style shooters out there. (they are less likely to have a matte box with rods on the camera). They may not even account for one RED purchase.

I have been all over the place on this issue as I have read through these posts for days. I'm not positive that 1080P in camera is going to be a huge benifit if the 4K 2K modes with REDCINE are or do become accepted delivery.

It's like Stuarts post listing the improvements since the initial NAB announcement. All of a sudden 4K was available. Things can and do change with this project and Jim obviously thought this an important enough possibility to put out there for opinions.

I think the jist of my post is that if the camera record modes are beyond recording HD now then why not make that next advancement.

When RED is release people will begin to comprehend that RED is RED, the way HDCAM is HDCAM and the way DVCPRO HD is DVCPROHD, P2 is P2. Everyone has adjusted to all of these shooting models and will continue to.

David

 

[Stephen Webb]

SO...

Gibby, it seems you can have your scaled from the full sensor @ 60 fps. It's in 2K not 1080p, don't know yet if that's RGB or RAW 'till Graeme returns to the land of the (semi) conscious.

I get my 100fps.

Does this now solve everything??? Please?

 

[Emanuel A.]

Yup .

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

Hopefully, I respect Gibby whole heartedly and hope that he gets all he wishes for.

 

[Michael Brennan]

You can lead a horse to water...

You can lead a horse to water...

As long as scaling is based on sampling all the pixels rather than using alternative lines, 2k is a reasonable option to avoid transcoding time.

But I'm wondering if deleting 1080p from recording option will also give rise to deleting a full spec 1080 HDSDI output from the camera that could have been used for many HD applications?
Getting HDSDI to work at 24, 25 and 30p without glitches is no mean feat!


BUT without a fully working HDSDI output the camera may not penetrate EFP market as well or as quickly and its use for live work will not be possible.
(I know a few OB companies in Europe with their eyes on RED both for live remote camera and also for the 720 120fps feature)


Also many folks are happy with a tape being delivered that they can pop into their in house existing edit suite. For instance on Thursday I was shooting HD air to air of the new A380 airbus. Client wanted the stuff straight away in a form that would initially drop into their existing workflow.. DV!


If I had a RED in a aerial gimbal I'd be recording on HD tape or even DV tape simultanously if client wanted to walk away from the shoot with something they can use themselves immediatley.

As an aside we had a backup HD recorder and DV on the job. For some jobs simultaneous dual recording would be desirable with RED especially if the HDSDI option is a non starter.


Surprisingly not every post house or production team can deal with a firewire drive with QT files be it DV HD or 2K resolution.

Over the last few days I've failed to convince a US company making a HD movie to take 5x10 second HD stock footage shots on a hard drive.
No they want D5 which is more expensive and a (slight) drop in quality!


As much as we are enamoured with RED not everyone will want to join the revolution even when we think it is good for them!



Mike Brennan

 

[Steve Gibby]

SO...

Gibby, it seems you can have your scaled from the full sensor @ 60 fps. It's in 2K not 1080p, don't know yet if that's RGB or RAW 'till Graeme returns to the land of the (semi) conscious.

I get my 100fps.

Does this now solve everything??? Please?

Not yet. RED still hasn't verified that 2k RC RAW scaled is possible. If/when Graeme verifies that I'll analyze the possibilities and draw some conclusions. Beyond that, the post work flow issues were best summarized by Anders Holck here:



"Well, Redcode as a blessed FCP format was announced at NAB.
In that case you would not need to convert anything.

When Editing, the only realtime process 1080P RGB needs is decompression and RGB>YUV conversion.
4k RAW would need decompression, demosaic, LUT/whitebalance, 4k > 1080p scale etc.

Unless they optimize the crap out of it, there is a big chance 1080p would be much smoother, and it would be possible to have full res realtime output over a AJA or blackmagic card, I wonder if that is within reach with the RAW workflow.

I don't think anything has been mentioned on the quality of the Redquick proxies yet, only the end resolution.

Again, it all depend on the speed of the 4k RAW workflow. If it's fast enough, only 35mm format high framerate recording would suffer from the removal of the RGB options."

Anders Holck
8/4/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3548


----------------------


When we have answers from RED on the possibility of 2k RC RAW scaled, and all of these post workflow issues that Anders nicely summarized, then I'll analyze all the workflow considerations and draw some conclusions accordingly.

 

[Mr. Paul White]

the post work flow issues were best summarized by Anders Holck here:



"Well, Redcode as a blessed FCP format was announced at NAB.
In that case you would not need to convert anything.

When Editing, the only realtime process 1080P RGB needs is decompression and RGB>YUV conversion.
4k RAW would need decompression, demosaic, LUT/whitebalance, 4k > 1080p scale etc.

Unless they optimize the crap out of it, there is a big chance 1080p would be much smoother, and it would be possible to have full res realtime output over a AJA or blackmagic card, I wonder if that is within reach with the RAW workflow.

I don't think anything has been mentioned on the quality of the Redquick proxies yet, only the end resolution.

Again, it all depend on the speed of the 4k RAW workflow. If it's fast enough, only 35mm format high framerate recording would suffer from the removal of the RGB options."

Anders Holck
8/4/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3548

This summary on the shooting options though not directly towards to post, is also carefully prepared:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3497

 

[Steve Gibby]

This summary on the shooting options though not directly towards to post, is also carefully prepared:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3497

Very true. Stephen did a nice job of summarizing the acquisition issues. I complimented him on his summary in a previous post of mine.

We're all professionals here who are interested in RED and it's capabilities. It's not surprising that opinions differ because people differ and choose a variety of genres to work in. I work in the film, TV, video, and still photography industries, so my interests and skill sets are broad, thus my deep interest in keeping RED One as capable and flexible as possible.