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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

EMERGENCY - Scarlet Footage Problem (on location now)

Edited in view of overlapping reply.


Against backreflection on a viewscreen coming in under a brolly, assuming you had one for shade over the operator, with the display showing a raw image, it would not be too hard to miss the IR colour cast.

As for "well no s**t dumbass" expectations, you are not going to get that expression from me. My guess that due to the schedule and the intense pressures involved you ended up with a camel-building committee of persons who each had enough knowing to work the problem to a solution over time in a more conducive environment. Sometimes in a collective circumstance, there evolves almost a barrier of denial of the obvious because - "Hey, the other guys are smart, have the knowing and will already have factored this problem out, so it MUST be something else."

Leave the self-flagellation and personaol blood-letting to the more extreme medieval Christian sects, Shi-ite Islam and maybe some others in there as well. Having evneutally worked the problem and learned, you have better things to look forward to.

If it comes to the worst, maybe you will have to find an excuse to creatively desaturate the footage to black and white here and there.
 
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hey robert!

the lenses are 100% manual, M42 mount adapted to EF mount. no motors, nothin'. old school glass-and-metal.

i've shot with these lenses on the 5DII for about 3 years with brilliant results (and indeed on the scarlet prior to today.) we used them partially because the brief was for a "dreamy, shallow-depth-of-field" look.

the reason i became so convinced of the IR situation is that as i look through the shots from today, those in more shaded environs exhibit far less of the problem, with the very worst of it seeming to be when the sun was really kicking.

of course i might just be making that logical conclusion because i can't figure out what else it might be.

i do have an R3D that i will try to upload shortly that might be illuminating. the histograms and RGB levels all look fine, but the colour is completely washed out in the reds. sharpness seems OK, however.

i really need a drink!
 
boy my post count is gonna be rockstar after all this.

in the interest of full disclosure, not only was the ND being applied without IR, but it was via a vari-ND attached to the lenses by a series of step-down rings, thereby introducing a fair bit of space between the ND and the lens.

in the shots where we used the tokina 11-16, everything looks great, despite using the same vari-ND. there might be a bit of IR contamination going on there, but nothing noticeable. nothing that makes me want to put spikes in my eyes like the other stuff.

it's now night time, but i plan to bring the scarlet out tomorrow and do a bit of controlled testing; see if i can't replicate the problem with more specifics.

i am, as we speak, uploading a ~250MB R3D of the offending footage. the outfit on the left was about as red as red can get, not fuschia. i'm actually banging away at it again with RCXPro and getting it KINDA close to being red again just by boosting the contrast and playing with the curves, and as a result i'm starting to feel a little hopeful that all is not lost, and maybe i was indeed panicking a bit. and even if there is some colouration, i'm acutally quite liking the vintage-y look i'm getting at the moment.

at the moment.

the R3D is here: http://www.darkenergymedia.com/red/r3d.zip if anyone would like to take a look. (still uploading at the moment but should be done in about 8 minutes from the time of this post.)

i'm also now beginning to think that whatever was affecting that first shot i posted was indeed something more than what's affecting these other shots, which does indeed seem to just be quite a bit of IR wackiness.

i still need a drink, though.
 
My reply became irrelevent as it posted before your last response. It has now been replaced with a new reply.
 
Vari-ND can also introduce a colour tint especially if used near maximum density, in addition to IR pollution issues.

It's possible the Tokina glass just happens to let through less IR than your other lenses ( the more modern coatings perhaps ).
 
thanks, robert (and everyone else)

things are indeed looking a bit better and indeed manageable now. i may have to get creative with colours to cover up a few parts, but it's not as "unuseable" as i'd initially convinced myself.

appreciate the insight and advise from everyone!
 
I'm sure everybody here has made their share of this type of mistake. You know the hard way lessons, the ones we'll never make again. I guess I'd make a suggestion from a lesson learned, read this forum. There are many professionals operating at the highest levels of this craft, you'll learn something new often. That's how I learned that with the SCARLET/EPIC you will get IR pollution with any ND's and after .9 they're absolutely necessary and even that different manufactures's solutions will have very different results. I read the forum during my morning coffee, been doing it for years. In my opinion it's time well spent.

So here's to failure, it sucks so much that it provides inspiration to not do it again and succeed.
 
Tell me if I'm wrong but isn't it the AC's job to notice such issues and counter act? And to listen to your advice in the first place as you said you told them about IR pollution?

When I work as AC I would take 100% responsibility for something like that but I'm also sure I would have noticed right away because that's part of my tasks.
I don't think you should blame yourself for it (I don't know if you do but you seem harassed).

Btw, I remember a Scarlet shoot on a very hot and super bright day, adding huge reflectors. We were using the Heliopan Vario ND at little above mid strenght if I remember right and there wasn't any IR pollution.
Do you remember what vari ND they were using, Chris?
 
oh i've spent many hours reading the forums here... hence why i was aware of the IR pollution problem in general... just wasn't aware it could be so drastic. and you're right... the failure is impetus to make sure this one potential pitfall doesn't happen again.

and it's true perhaps that it's the AC's job to notice this stuff - the guy in this case is very capable and professional, but the circumstances surrounding this particular shoot were such that it was kind of a perfect storm of variables that prevented anyone from being able to stop the train to really investigate when it was fully appropriate. that includes me as well, as the schedule was slipping due to other complications and our monitoring situation was less than ideal.

in truth, it was probably a combination of things that led to the issue beyond the obvious.

to answer your question, michael, we were using the fader ND, admittedly one of the cheaper stacked pola options. the whole shoot was based on my kit, which i'm learning needs to be fleshed out with a few critical items.

i only blamed myself as it was my gear and i should have pressed the IRND issue a bit... and i'm also a bit of a perfectionist when my name or my company's name is on the line, and regardless of where the fault lies, people don't necessarily remember why or how a problem happens, just that it happened and that you were associated in some way.

in all, it seems like this is going to be OK... but Reduser has been a serious moral pillow to fall back on during the immediate fallout, so thanks again to everyone!
 
Well if nothing else, I'm glad you post things like this so I can learn from the mistakes of others. Thanks for posting the issue.
 
The DP is responsible for the images he or she creates in ever aspect. If the idiot hired on this was completely unaware of IR and digital cameras, then he should be fired. That is the harsh reality of the business. If you are responsible for a lot of other peoples money, you better get your shit together. The only other person to blame is the ass hat that hired the DP.

Nick
 
I would tell your colourist to ride it out with a purple hue; something tells me that'd be easier than trying to correct it out of the shots... It kind of looks nice in a vintage sort of way (other than the skin tones being complete messed).
 
The ir pollution is evident in the r3d that you posted but in the first screenshot something else is going on. I think I have seen something like this on an old build when changing lenses. I assumed that in changing the lens, I was coming into contact with the data pins and causing a freakout. On later builds you can turn the pins off I think ( I don't use canon lenses so I'm not quite sure) but I haven't seen that look in a while.
If you are not using canon's, I would turn the lens controls off. (and stop using that vari ND.)
 
nick, that's a very blunt, and perhaps often valid way of looking at it, but there's more to it than just that. i was actually pushing the use of the RED as it seemed appropriate for this particular project - the DP was a bit resistant, as this sort of thing has typically been shot on cameras he's more familiar with in the past. the takumar lenses were also my idea, as i felt they'd help us achieve the images we were going for - not thinking that indeed they'd probably let in a good amount more IR than more current lenses.

he's also a friend of mine and probably trusted that the setup i was providing was a bit more bombproof than this... which is all the more reason why i was so initially frustrated. and as i mentioned before, there were numerous extenuating circumstances that all contributed to the issue not being immediately noticed. i was immediately called over when the first example was happening in-camera. but again, it seemed to go away, and the other IR-crazy shots weren't nearly as pronounced until getting them into a shady spot with a bigger monitor.

anyway, in the end, it seems as though it'll all work out. and i'm glad this thread can potentially help others avoid this particular pitfall. this is probably the most extreme example one could hope for to illustrate this particular issue, so here's to hoping others can avoid making a similar mistake!
 
Hey Chris

Looks like you've had a very close call, I'm super Happy you can salvage the footage.

Quick question though, how could this IR pollution be reduced/removed in the future?

Is it possible to get IR filters? Should we just use lenses with modern coatings only? That would be a shame. Can you get IRND's?

Thanks

Adrian
 
The camera department should be wearing this one. No AC worth his salt would allow images that soft and IR contaminated to be recorded, and both the DP and the AC need to understand the limitations of the gear and know when they have pushed it too far.

This was the perfect combination of an old lens with low-tech coatings and a cheap vari-ND adding it's own color cast while also passing a ton of IR. BUT, that is why we hire professional camera crews. It is their job to know. For example, in most lenses IR focuses on a different plane. Even if the visible light is sharp, the IR contamination won't be. Stills lenses sometimes have an additional witness mark in red to indicate the markings when intentionally shooting infrared.

As far as your idea that no one could "stop the train" and fix the problems: Which would hurt the schedule more - a reshoot or taking a few minutes to shoot it right in the first place? I have never in 22 years been on a shoot where I wasn't able to stop when needed to fix a camera issue. Otherwise you're just wasting everyone's time and money. The people that hire you and sign the checks aren't going make a big deal about the day you went off-schedule to fix a camera issue, but they sure as heck will remember the reshoot if you don't.

Difficult lesson for everyone. You have to possess the skills and confidence to hit the brakes and save the shoot when necessary.
 
Nick Gardner said:
I

No, there really isn't. You are a professional or you aren't.
Click to expand...

Yes, they screwed up. Professionals screw up, but take responsibility for it, learn and don't do that again. Preparation and experience help, and people at the top have learnt so well that mistakes become rare, but if you've never made a mistake, you're in a minority! :)
 
We all make mistakes. Taking a job, and not knowing what an f-stop is, and calling yourself a DP, is criminal negligence. Not knowing about IR pollution falls under the same category. After a particularly humiliating mistake made when I was an AC, I was told by the DP, "Man, you can make as many mistakes as you want, just don't make the same one twice." The DP doesn't get to make mistakes. That's his job. Being the Big Dick Daddy comes with responsibilities ;-)

Nick
 
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