Element Technica Handheld rig "The Mantis" now available!

[Rick Darge]

Indie Rentals is offering them for $75/day I believe. I'll be adding the rig to my kit at no additional cost because 95% of my work is me operating my cam and I needs to protect this aching back!

 

[Joel Kaye]

hugging your neck and cheek, the eyepiece naturally landing right to the eye.

I think it would be very difficult to balance a RED for handheld while using the EVF. The EVF is just too damn heavy so you need a lot of counterweight. Once you go to the LCD then it gets easier as in the Boyle photo. Look where his head is. He'd have to move the cradle back a foot if he had the EVF on.

Anyway the ET thing looks nice, but yeah - at $1k I'd be more likely to get it. I think the AllStar stuff could be balanced just like the Boyle rig. He has the same shoulder angle design on his rig. throw on some zacuto handles if you want handles and you've got something similar to the Mantis from what I can tell from the photos.

EDIT: I just noticed the 19mm Zacuto Z-Grips are $930... so yeah, the ET stuff isn't too bad compared to that.

 

[geoffboyle]

What did Geoff Boyle mean by this statement exactly?

"The practical use of them is not well thought out."

Isn't the RED ONE design about as adaptable, modular and accommodating as it gets?

-shooter

I meant exactly what I said

The design of the RED one is not production friendly, there are a number of issues that have a deleterious effect on a professional production.

Too many sockets on the side where you will want to Velcro all kinds of crap, sockets to small and flimsy, LCD display in a crazy position where it is always obscured by crap mounted on the back of the camera, too high a CoG.

All of these things seem to be being dealt with and I'm really looking forward to Epic.

Maybe some of the shots on this page http://www.gboyle.co.uk/wallander.html will help to make sense of my comments.

Geoff

 

[geoffboyle]

IMO the Mantis is for pro level cinematographers who do a lot of shoulder held work.

Absolutely the case!

OK so someone who doesn't do it all the time doesn't need something this good but if you do it 6 days a week 12 hours a day then it's a required piece of kit.

It's the only way I've managed to totally balance a RED, to the point where I could take my hands off and not panic

And THAT is the key to good hand-held, a totally balance rig, weight almost becomes a non-issue.

Hey! I've only shot hand-held for a living since 1973 so what so I know

Geoff

 

[geoffboyle]

Curran,

It's about a balance.

Geoff is balancing his "heavy" cine lens in front with a "bunch" of batteries on back.

Actually Geoff has one IDX battery on the back.

If I had to operate with my arms in the air they way that you're rigged I'd agree on your 30 minute limit.

However, lower arms tucked in to the body have allowed me to operate HH for hours at a time in the past, ask anyone who shot loads of concerts.

It's actually an Optimo 15-40 lens on the camera, one of the lightest high quality lenses around.

I would work totally differently in s docco situation but the rig we put together was for a fast moving drama where we wanted the cameras to be highly integrated in to the action.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Geoff,

thanks for your replay and giving us more info here at the forum.

 

[Shawn Booth]

[/QUOTE]

Your set up looks awfully painful/uncomfortable. I'm happy [U]YOU[/U] CAN operate like this (has nothing to do with the Mantis)...

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Your set up looks awfully painful/uncomfortable. I'm happy YOU CAN operate like this (has nothing to do with the Mantis)...

Shawn,

if you think so that you are totally wrong.

Also would you be so kind to show us here your non-painful and comfortable set up with RED1.

One more thing:

Even Mac Daddy has a handle bridge at almost in the same position as mine.

I can take off Allstar shoulder pad, exchange with a custom (self)made flat pad and make the system lower with EVF a bit higher that is the same as a Mac Daddy's.

Mac Daddy RED Scarlet/Epic design.

 

[michael zaletel]

I meant exactly what I said

The design of the RED one is not production friendly, there are a number of issues that have a deleterious effect on a professional production.

Too many sockets on the side where you will want to Velcro all kinds of crap, sockets to small and flimsy, LCD display in a crazy position where it is always obscured by crap mounted on the back of the camera, too high a CoG.

All of these things seem to be being dealt with and I'm really looking forward to Epic.

Maybe some of the shots on this page http://www.gboyle.co.uk/wallander.html will help to make sense of my comments.

Geoff

I stand corrected by a guy that's been shooting handheld since 1973 in more professional configurations than I can imagine.

That really sucks!

I'm probably going to have to yield the floor to the gentleman from London and buy a Mantis.

That sucks even more!

-shooter

 

[Matthew Rogers]

Even Mac Daddy has a handle bridge at almost in the same position as mine.

Except, that with the R1 accessories, RED proved that they were not the best at designing accessories--especially handheld accessories. Personally, I don't believe the setup they rendered out looks very comfortable to me. Just like Geoff said, you want your elbows to be able to rest on your body. If you don't your entire body will get tired much sooner than it should. The fact that the Epic/Scarlet should be much lighter than the R1 should also help.

Matthew

 

[Matthew Rogers]

Even Mac Daddy has a handle bridge at almost in the same position as mine.

Except, that with the R1 accessories, RED proved that they were not the best at designing accessories--especially handheld accessories. Personally, I don't believe the setup they rendered out looks very comfortable to me. Just like Geoff said, you want your elbows to be able to rest on your body. If you don't your entire body will get tired much sooner than it should. The fact that the Epic/Scarlet should be much lighter than the R1 should also help.

Matthew

 

[Shawn Booth]

Sanjin - For now you can see my avatar pic (posed shot with EVF not set). I use the RED handle system mounted to lower rods, flush against my follow focus bridge. (Not my ideal set up, but one waits for what one needs...) Usually though, the MB is my go-to handle. Hands holding the box is my most comfortable position - and it allows me to zoom with my finger right on the barrel. (Thanks Guy)

When I receive the Mantis I'l post new pics of my configuration to include it.

My statement about yours looking painful is not wrong. It is my opinion. While I have not been an operator since the '70's, I have been one for a few years now and have operated most of Panavision's current line up, F900/Varicam, ARRI's line of awesomeness, Moviecam SL, Aaton's, RED One, DVX/HVX when the show had no budget. I love hand held work. Currently, that is a lot of what I do. I used your set up once, it lasted about sixty seconds when I cut, and reworked the set up. Hands high? Not for me. Elbows floating, not for me.

And that's all I'm saying. I'm not critiquing you. I just disagree with you.
----------

Back to the topic -

$2K for this hand held system is robbery on our parts. We're stealing this from ET practically. There is not a HH system out there that compares or even stands next to the Mantis. Not one. And the better ones (not better than, just the higher end/nonprosumer ones) cost more than the Mantis. Look at ARRI's for example.

And you do not NEED the ARRI BP for the Mantis - unless you're switching from sticks to HH constantly, on the fly, or have zero time to do so. (Chris switched completely form studio mode to HH in 52 seconds and that was with removing eye piece extension/leveler to boot.)

I think if you have a problem with the price, you probably don't need it. But if you get it anyway, you will be thankful you did and thankful it was only $2K.

That's enough REDUSER for the day. The ocean is a quarter mile away and callin'.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

$2K for this hand held system is robbery on our parts.

I wouldn't like to steal from ET... how much do you think this is really worth?

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I wouldn't like to steal from ET... how much do you think this is really worth?

It's woth exactly what ET is charging, but more importantly it's worth the amount you are comfortable paying to be able to do handheld well with the Red. For Sanjin, he has found his comfort zone, and that's cool. For others they may have built their own to suit their needs, had others design something for them (Rodney Charters and his traveling handle system), or used whatever they have at their disposal (Red production pack, shoulder pad, towel, etc). I would bet there are at least 1,000 shooters who will drop the $2K on this rig without even thinking about it, especially if they have had the chance to test it. Others might need a little more time to save up, but know it's the right way to go. And others will decide it's not worth the cash, and they will put their money elsewhere.

Geoff will always tell you straight out what he's thinkng. No BS there. So, it's a good testimonial to the Mantis's quality and performance. But nothing beats taking it for a test ride and seeing for yourself if it works within your style. That's how you are able to put a dollar figure on it.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Shawn,

if you think so that you are totally wrong.

Also would you be so kind to show us here your non-painful and comfortable set up with RED1.

One more thing:

Even Mac Daddy has a handle bridge at almost in the same position as mine.

I can take off Allstar shoulder pad, exchange with a custom (self)made flat pad and make the system lower with EVF a bit higher that is the same as a Mac Daddy's.

Mac Daddy RED Scarlet/Epic design.

Sanjin, look again. Your design has the handgrips about three inches over your eye. The "Mac Daddy" render shows the handgrip about two inches below the eye and considerably further out in front. Your shoulder pad is a good six inches below lens center (I know you said you can lower this, so let's say four inches) and the render shows a shoulder pad at almost exactly lens center. These are huge, huge differences.

If this setup really works for you then more power to you. But in my professional experience and that of many others, we don't find this a comfortable way to go. I'm not here to convince you of anything and you're certainly welcome to shoot your own way to your heart's content. But it may behoove you to try some of the suggestions we're offering, some of which could be experimented with without the purchase of any additional equipment by you. What's the hurt in that?

 

[ALLSTAR]

Hey guys, I think we should stop fighting about HH rig. Sanjin he has his way to use those rigs, others should respect. The "no hands" doen't mean anything, because no one can shoot in the real shot (for work). The only meaning for it is, the shoulder rig can be balanced and it's simple to do it. Welcome to my Thread if you are interested in the pictures. ET is a company, it's for sure that they need to make money, and $2k is cheap than Arri's. Everyone has his own money and rights to choose what they need.
Peace and go to shoot something great.

 

[geoffboyle]

The "no hands" doen't mean anything, because no one can shoot in the real shot (for work). The only meaning for it is, the shoulder rig can be balanced and it's simple to do it.

I agree totally with you, if any other mount would allow me to balance a Red totally and compensate for my sloping shoulders and compensate for my shoulders turning in I'd look at and use it.


The thing is total balance, without it you WILL get tired, with it you'll still get tired but not in that Oh my God! I can't manage another shot way


I loved my Aatons, they just sat there, my BVW's were balanced with accessories so that they just sat there.

When I first shot HH with Red's I was not happy, as unhappy as I would be using an Arri SR HH for long periods.

I've got a solution now, it works for me.

I think that it will work for most of you, as for cost, well I came up in a world where Pro kit cost a lot. The first cameras I bought cost way more than a house.

Happily that isn't the case any more

 

[Olivier Madar]

2 shoot with allstar shoulder

2 shoot with allstar shoulder

I have done 2 "run and gun dirty shooting" with the Allstar shoulder and here what I think about it :

I have bought in the past at ET and Allstar. I have the ET eyes piece, and i don't wonder how I could be without it and the EVF... It is just a "must have" master piece for me. And I bought also an Allstar Dovetail. When the new Dovetail was born, Allstar sent me an email for free upgrade. It is worse the swap because the new one is much better. So, i think both Allstar and ET are great company.

I bought the Allstar shoulder because of :
1) the price
2) weight and simplicity

For my first shoot (blue clothes on the pictures), I use the shoulder and the Allstar plate because I was all the time swaping with tripod. I left the LCD on the camera and all that was a little bit heavy.

Yesterday, I went to Paris and wanted to be as light as possible. I put all what I needed in a little luggy bag, and a little smart car. A friend of me took the nikon D3 and 4 primes : 50 1,4 - 28 2 Zeiss, 1,4 85, 2,8 14

I left the Allstar plate and put the shoulder directly on the Redbody, and it was really lightweight !! Not more than my old Sony DSR500:shifty:

I shoot during 3 hours with no pain, and no camera-carriers. The camera was well balanced on my shoulder and I was able to hold it with 2 fingers. Sometime I put the camera on my leg, sometine on a street pole, sometime on a parapet. It is very versatile and LIGHT !!!

May be I have love the Mantis too but I did not try it and I think the price is to heavy for me (may be I am wrong, I don't know). But today, if I had to do the choice again, I should by the Allstar again.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Olivier,

thanks for your nice report.

It's all about RED1 hand-held as you've said and showed in the pictures.

For mine point of view to shoot hand-held also means to record a sound.

How about that audio recording with your rig?

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Thanks for your report Olivier. Since I already have the RED grips... the Allstar seems like a definite possibility.