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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Element Technica Handheld rig "The Mantis" now available!

Sanjin - This has nothing to do with Hollywood...

(Although Stephen's wealth of experience and knowledge working in Hollywood is why we're talking.)

I would put my camera on line that once you have used the Mantis, you'd "buy it". This isn't hype. It's just truth.

I love the Aaton cameras. Most amazing camera for hand held work - even better than the 235. They're awesome. (suck to load...)

The Mantis is where it's at for hand held with ANY camera system that takes the ARRI baseplate (They also made it to attach w/o it). It pays for itself. From an operator stand point, this thing is a god send.
 
ET's hand-held rig is great, I've used it and it and believe it's the best solution for the Red. It also should work seamlessly with future cameras. I know it seems a bit expensive but if you are working professionally with you camera you will pay it off quickly.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
 
I'd happily pay $1000 for this. $2000, plus the $900 199mm arri baseplate...that's getting into glass money there. If I shot a lot of handheld I'd probably want to shoot it out against the allstar or the redrock...

I have no doubt it's awesome, all the ET stuff is.

I don't think it's priced wrong, it's just that I would definitely buy it at $1000 but at it's current price puts me in the wait and see category.

which is a bummer, since I own both an oconnor 1030 and an origo... and my red dovetail needs to be pried off with a screwdriver once the locking mechanism is engaged.
 
I have always loved the Aaton camera design. In Super-16 nothing compares. The essential mechanical / ergonomic design has not changed from model to model for more than 30 years. That's because JP got it so right from the start. Sucks to load? You must be talking about the Aaton 35-3, not the 16mm. Even the A-minima is the essense of clever design. And when y'all see the Aaton Penelope 35mm camera you'll see design excellence once again, including easy loading. Abel will have it available for rental (and sale!) at the end of January.

All that said, Sanjin I have to say that your setup is not even close to JP's "cat on the shoulder." If it works for you then great, but the idea is to have the camera balance on the shoulder, hugging your neck and cheek, the eyepiece naturally landing right to the eye. And the hand should rise to the level of the chin so that the elbow can remain against the body for both support and stability. It looks to me like your hands would need to be raised considerably higher than this.

It's funny -- for the Phantom HD we've designed a custom support system that has many similarities to the ET system. Most guys absolutely love it. But personally I prefer a tiny rig we worked out that has an Aaton handgrip and a tiny pad for the shoulder. Maybe that's just my decades with the Aaton, but that's me.

I also think the ET Mantis is the bees-knees and perhaps one of the cleverest bits of ergonomic engineering to come to our industry in years. Someone actually reinvented the handheld rig in a completely new and stunningly effective yet straightforward way. "Hey, let's make the shoulderpad adjustable!" You have no idea how brilliant this is until you try it. I have nothing against the AllStar, Zacuto, RedRock Micro, UGrip or any other rigs for the RED. In fact we sell some! But they are on a different design level to the Element Technica Mantis.
 
Max, you may not realize it, but the Mantis does not require you to have the ET "Arri Bridge." It's nice if you do for quick mounting, but while the top plate of the Mantis is a dovetail to accept a bridge, it also has a series of holes so that you can screw either into a RED Cheeseplate (just leave this mounted on the Mantis and pop on and off your camera) or even directly into the bottom of the camera itself.

How many Mantis rigs will ET sell? It may be several thousand, but certainly not every RED One owner will purchase one. I think a bunch of owners of other cameras will buy them once they see how useful it is, but it's not like they'll be shipping them by the truckload. I think it's pretty reasonably priced considering what they're offering, but we're each entitled to our own opinion.
 
I just have to chime in here again. It seems that some think this is a price/value discussion. For me, it is simply an economics discussion. Sure the R&D investment is an unknown but I think we can all agree that the manufacturing costs of units 100 and up is only a fraction of the retail price (even with strict tolerances).

The arguments most of you are putting forward in defense of the Mantis sound a lot like the arguments a prime jeweler, suit maker or import sports car salesman would use. To make a statement like "If you can't afford the Mantis, work hard until you can" misses the point entirely.

From the beginning, all I've said is that I think it is priced wrong. No, I am not a machinist (but my Father-in-law is one), I am a business man and I still contend that ET can make "more" money selling the Mantis for $1,000 than they can selling it for $2,000. You guys are acting like this thing literally costs $1,500 to make unit #500 thru #1000. I am sorry, but it just doesn't. No matter how great the materials or how tight the tolerances. Also, the more they can sell, the lower the mfg. cost.

This discussion has nothing to do with quality and workmanship and blah, blah, blah. This has everything to do with simple supply and demand price elasticity economics.

If ET would have priced this at $1,000, they would easily sell three times as many (perhaps 4 or 5 times as many), they could still provide the same quality and tolerance everyone is raving about, but more people would get to enjoy it, they would expand their customer base and make more profit at the end of the day.

This is a RED user group after all. Not a Sony user group. Come on guys? Haven't we learned first hand that quality cinema gear doesn't have to break the bank?

I am not saying that I can buy something better or even same quality for less. I realize that if I want a quality handheld rig for my Red One, I have no choice, I have to fork out $2,000 for the Mantis until someone else comes along and understands the economics model and builds a better one that will sell for $1,000. I can assure you that will happen.

-shooter
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
ill save my money for a high powered sniper rifle and an automatic close distance rifle..

it will be needed a little more than a hand held rig come martial law
Click to expand...

Amen brother. I predict the Mantis will be worth a 20 pound bag of rice soon. :-)
 
Mitch Gross said:
I have always loved the Aaton camera design. In Super-16 nothing compares. The essential mechanical / ergonomic design has not changed from model to model for more than 30 years. That's because JP got it so right from the start. Sucks to load? You must be talking about the Aaton 35-3, not the 16mm. Even the A-minima is the essense of clever design. And when y'all see the Aaton Penelope 35mm camera you'll see design excellence once again, including easy loading. Abel will have it available for rental (and sale!) at the end of January.

All that said, Sanjin I have to say that your setup is not even close to JP's "cat on the shoulder." If it works for you then great, but the idea is to have the camera balance on the shoulder, hugging your neck and cheek, the eyepiece naturally landing right to the eye. And the hand should rise to the level of the chin so that the elbow can remain against the body for both support and stability. It looks to me like your hands would need to be raised considerably higher than this.

It's funny -- for the Phantom HD we've designed a custom support system that has many similarities to the ET system. Most guys absolutely love it. But personally I prefer a tiny rig we worked out that has an Aaton handgrip and a tiny pad for the shoulder. Maybe that's just my decades with the Aaton, but that's me.

I also think the ET Mantis is the bees-knees and perhaps one of the cleverest bits of ergonomic engineering to come to our industry in years. Someone actually reinvented the handheld rig in a completely new and stunningly effective yet straightforward way. "Hey, let's make the shoulderpad adjustable!" You have no idea how brilliant this is until you try it. I have nothing against the AllStar, Zacuto, RedRock Micro, UGrip or any other rigs for the RED. In fact we sell some! But they are on a different design level to the Element Technica Mantis.
Click to expand...

Mitch,

I can understand you because you always try to "spread' your "Reseller's" blah, blah.

Also I'm Red User and always trying to "spread" my user point of view, experience and of course some blah, blah.

What ever you say but I claim again that my RED1 handheld rig is much "closer" to Aaton's concept of ""Like a cat on the shoulder*" than ET's Mantis.

Just have a look at the pictures below:

HH_01.jpg

Camera: RED1, Lens: Canon FD 35-105mm f/3.5, Audio: Rode NTG3 mic, M-Audio MicroTrack II, Sennheiser HD 25-1 II headphones, Shoulder pad and top handle bridge: Allstar.

HH_02.jpg

Camera: RED1, Lens: Canon FD 35-105mm f/3.5, Audio: Rode NTG3 mic, M-Audio MicroTrack II, Sennheiser HD 25-1 II headphones, Shoulder pad and top handle bridge: Allstar.

HH_03.jpg

Camera: RED1, Lens: Canon FD 35-105mm f/3.5, Audio: Rode NTG3 mic, M-Audio MicroTrack II, Sennheiser HD 25-1 II headphones, Shoulder pad and top handle bridge: Allstar.

i_chat.gif

"Like a cat on the shoulder*" concept>>
 
Curran,

that's one I posted here first.

Nice but using LCD I can do the same.

It's about a balance.

Geoff is balancing his "heavy" cine lens in front with a "bunch" of batteries on back.
 
I ordered one up the day I got the email (through Abel- thanks Mitch)
Looking forward to having a fairly affordable, professional hand held rig for my Red. I have not priced it out, but the Arri shoulder set is likely twice as much.
Shooter, you're likely right about Economics 101. There IS price elasticity. But only Stephen Pizzo and his partners know how much the materials, parts, and machine time costs. Only they know how much the rent (or mortgage) is, how much their employee and FICA costs are, insurance, phones, lights, retirement plans, advertising and web costs, etc. etc. And at the end of the day, they deserve to make a profit, yes?
I'm sure they also know how to set up the spreadsheet that computes, "if we sell 1,000 at 'X' vs. 3,000 at 'Y', how much money comes in?" I bet the answer is that in the small numbers we're talking about (1,000-3,000 units) the answer is that it's basically even money whether they sell 1,000 at $1,800 or 3,000 at $1,200. And what if, in the end, they only sell 1,800? Do they break even, or lose money?
If they thought they would sell 20,000 units, then sure, they price could change. But the world does not need 20,000 Mantises (sorry Steven)
Soooo...
If it's too annoying to fork over the $1,800 then don't. Sanjin's rig looks pretty nice, and it's cheap. Heck, I've just been stripping the camera and using one handgrip on the top rods up until now. Either way, it's nice to have options.
Cheers,
Harry
 
The Mantis looks worth every penny, and it's not even worth discussing economics because we are totally clueless about the front end loaded expenses of making this - they've made a better mousetrap, er, handheld rig, one that is completely custom-fitted. It looks awesome. Nice work, ET.

Like many others, I had planned on an immediate purchase that is now placed on hold. These are hard times, and ET may face some headwinds in terms of selling them. All assumptions are off, in these tough economic times.

I wish them well. I want them to be there when I'm ready to start paying up for premium quality products again.
 
Sanjin, please don't put down my remarks as saying that they are from a "reseller's" perspective. My statements about Aaton come from decades of operating one as an independent DP. When I look at the pictures of yourself wearing a very heavily padded coat and holding your RED rig and compare that to JP with the cat on his shoulder, what I see is your arms extended very high so that your elbow is almost level with your shoulder. This decreases bloodflow to your wrist and dramatically increases the strain upon the muscles in your arm, especially your forearm. If the rig was positioned so that the elbow could be wedged against the side of your chest then it is far more stable and comfortable. The left hand that adjusts the lens can be swung out when moving for better balance (think of a tightrope walker with a balancing rod) or held close to the chest with the hand cupping the right arm's elbow to relieve the right arm to any strain over time.

I'm not making this stuff up out of any product literature from anything we sell. This is hard-earned knowledge based on years and years of camera operating. And I didn't work in a vacuum; it's not like I have not been around many, many other cameramen over the years sharing our experiences.
 
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