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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

element technica breakout box first look...

Jaron Berman said:
I know I'm going to be jumped all over because this is one of my first posts here, and it's negative, but this is ridiculous...

Jarred - unless I'm mistaken, the camera was conceived from the ground up by you guys. Hence any mechanical constraints stemming from the body shape and size would be self-imposed. As another poster pointed out - the indent on the side of the camera could have been flattened, with rear-swept bnc's which would provide some mechanical shielding - which I would assume is the purpose of the dent. Even with the Element adapter sticking off the side, the camera has exactly the same clearance it did before - limited by the FHG lemos.

Saying, "Its been our number one complaint since day one,"...out of curiosity, when a design problem arises internally, who do you complain to? Call it what it is, and congratulate Element for fixing a mistake. RED has done so many things right, I think you guys have the leeway to admit that this was a pretty dumb decision of function following form.
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True, but this thing is forged in the fires of pure EGO - it would not exist as it does today if Red did what was moderate and reasoned and hung out with the pack. Luckily the few remaining design flaws that we inherit are not that hard to work around.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
 
there has gotta be something in the water.. or Santa musta been not so nice this year... or some people arn't getting any....

alot of grumpy-ass people around...
 
Design flaw - no design improvement IMHO - my 2cents

Design flaw - no design improvement IMHO - my 2cents

Jarred Land said:
I wouldnt call it a design flaw.. since at the time it was a requirement for mechanical constraints... and macleod I'd like to know who at Red is saying that mini-bnc's are better then full size BNC's....... pm me.

Its been our number one complaint since day one, which is why we are so excited about helping breed solutions. People should just be happy that for full size lovers there is an option, just because it didnt directly come from us doesnt mean the solution should be discarded.
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It is a lot easier to make something bigger i.e. with full size BNCs, than it would be to make the camera smaller if they had used larger connectors to start.

I salute RED for making the camera the way they did. It's high time that someone moved things forward, and maybe this will help get mini-xlrs and mini-BNCs more common and then it won't be an issue.

Remember USB languished for several years until Apple put ONLY USBs on the IMAC. Then numerous peripherals came out as USB and eventually PCs (and now even the RED) incorporated USB into their standard design. Had it not been for Apple forcing the issue we might still be using 9 pin unpowered serial cables.

There are numerous applications where the lightest weight and smallest profile are critical but there are almost none where the full size connectors would be used and the extra size weight of the element breakout would be a problem.

In other words, ask Brook how much difference a few ounces and smaller profile make when he straps a RED onto his head for skydiving (or skiing, skateboarding, etc.). Yet does it matter much that you had to put on the extra adapter for your studio or tripod or crane shot?
 
Hi. Grumpy guy here. Sorry if I offended anyone.

I appreciate finally hearing some answers on the mini-BNC design choices and having the community participate in a productive discussion about them.

I had not considered the idea that a breakout box could be semi-disposable and easier to replace when worn than the built-in connectors. This is a good thing and would actually make the camera more field-servicable.

Thanks, Dylan, for explaining my motivation better than I had. I do have a tendancy to tell it like it is on here because I will be the one at the pointy end of the stick when things don't work on set. Clients paying thousands of dollars don't really care that the inside of the camera was really crowded with stuff when they built it or that the body had to fit within an exact shape. They care if the pretty pictures they are watching cut out or disappear.

I truly see the Red as an eventual complete replacement for the film and HD cameras we use now. My primary goal on this message board is to encourage everyone to develop Red to the level where we can use it with confidence in every place we would normally take an Arri.

I have some pretty strong opinions about what a professional motion picture camera should be able to do. I have opened the door of a working Arri 3 and had water come out. I have held garbage bags around an Arri BL to protect it from sand tornados in the Sahara. I have used 435s in the Rocky Mountains in weather so cold a bottle of water would freeze solid while you were drinking it.


If you find it difficult to read honest comments and criticisms being made about your baby by a working professional with high expectations, there is a feature on this board to 'ignore posts by this user'. As long as the people with red-colored forum handles continue to read my rants I'm cool.

The give and take of professional discussion boards is healthy and it is how we learn. If this thread hadn't gone in the direction it did, I would not have considered how a breakout box could also be thought of a field-replaceable solution for delicate connectors.

I find I tend to learn more from a single negative-ish post than from 5 pages of "wow, you guys are the greatest" "nice work" "i gotta get one of these". Maybe the mods could start a Fanboy section for those posts or create a 'don't make me have negative thoughts' filter. :-)
 
Is there any new info on this BNC break out box, i see it as an essential item that clients will expect. i too was not happy with mini BNCs on the Red but now see this solution is possibly better than starting off with normal ones as the break out box can be replaced more easily.
 
Stephen at ET told me that they'd be likely to ship this week and that they've gotten a TON of interest. I'm going to call them today to place my order. There is also a Red EVF bracket in the works that sounds really nice and of course they make the 15mm and 19mm bridgeplates and dovetails.
It's terrific that Red has good third-party support. Exciting times!
Cheers,
Harry
 
CrewPix.com said:
Hi. Grumpy guy here. Sorry if I offended anyone.

I have opened the door of a working Arri 3 and had water come out. I have held garbage bags around an Arri BL to protect it from sand tornados in the Sahara. I have used 435s in the Rocky Mountains in weather so cold a bottle of water would freeze solid while you were drinking it.
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Reminds me of Hutger Hauers speech at the end of Blade Runner

"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tanhauser Gate. All those ... moments will be lost in time, like tears...in rain. Time to die."

roy.jpg


Sorry, I just got it on HD DVD...I digress...

It does seem dissapointing that team RED arent 100% pleased with their choice of connectors when almost every other aspect of the camera has been honed to perfection-in alot of cases publicly.

Pobody's nerfect...
 
what i dont get is... you can get a 17.5k camera.. and wait two years for it. but you can't get plugs and mini bncr cables.

the whole design is compact... mini xlr.. mini bnc.. mini stuff. i mean do like the normal xlr plugs... the normal bnc plugs... and i know it can be a pain in the ass to go.. place an order.. wait a week for them cables/adapters to arrive. you gotta love the hdmi out... i love that. but come on... cut the guys some slack, because back then.. we were drooling at red photos with those connectors... and i can't remember the point being raised well for bnc's.

Plus.. we should've mentioned this long time ago. when reds were in pre-prod. i wish i raised this issue when i had the chance. anyways... its kinda too late to start yapping now. it isn't entirely RED's fault to have those outputs that way. they showed us that a looong time ago and we could have said.. yay or nay way before they started production.
________
Ford kent engine picture
 
I don't own a RED and can't afford a $580 breakout box but I hope you don't mind a little curiosity that might help others.

Your goal is to use the camera often enough so that on the average you are setting up and breaking down shots several times a day. If this is so, I would think that a $580 breakout box with cables rated to 500 mating cycles would be lucky to last a good year of ownership.

As far as I know, I can push and pull a USB cable once a day for several years and it will still work fine. People do that with iPods all the time and I'm sure they would be pretty upset if their $20 cable would last for only a year or so of use.

If it would cost $2 per connector to double the usable life of this device to 1,000 cycles, I'm truly baffled that you would not consider this. Your $580 device would turn into a $600 device because of all the connectors it has in it but I think people would then pay $650 for it and be happier than if you'd charged $580 for 500 cycles.

Why, then, is the usable life of these very expensive cables so short and if you have an expensive breakout box, why not use the longest life cables you can find?

It does seem like the breakout box is a good investment compared to the cost of repairing the RED camera's cables, so it seems like this might have been a reasonable design decision. People who use their REDs lightly can stick with adapters, while heavier users buy this kind of breakout box and preserve their cables.

It's noteworthy that a similar stink has come up about the new MacBook Air having a MicroDVI cable to save space. Since it's even more important to save space and weight in a camera that may frequently be handheld, I think RED's decision is reasonable.

D
 
BNC Cables just get trashed on set. They get rolled over by dollies, wound up wrong by PAs and walked on, twisted up and generally beat to hell, so in any normal kit they will be replaced every year anyway so buying very expensive cables is pointless if you can get a strong enough signal out of a cheaper one.
I don't know the details of the connectors but usually manufactures rate those connection spec conservatively so I would expect the useable life to be substantially longer than 500. However my plan all along was to use right angle BNC elbows to relieve cable strain, this would give you a $3 connector to continuously wear out instead of your Break out box or your camera connectors.
500256.gif
 
500 mating cycles is the minimum rating provided by the manufacturer - which is probably the same rating as the BNC connectors on the back of an F900, or on your vidsplit unit.

It's not saying that they will stop working on connection number 501, just that they are rated for 500 mating cycles. A look around online seems to suggest that all readily available BNC connectors are rated at 500 cycles. It's just the standard. Most USB connectors seem to be rated at 1000 cycles.

I guessing that they'll go well beyond 500 cycles. And given they are carrying digital data, they can withstand much more signal loss than an analogue signal might.
 
Akube said:
what i dont get is... you can get a 17.5k camera.. and wait two years for it. but you can't get plugs and mini bncr cables.

the whole design is compact... mini xlr.. mini bnc.. mini stuff. i mean do like the normal xlr plugs... the normal bnc plugs... and i know it can be a pain in the ass to go.. place an order.. wait a week for them cables/adapters to arrive. you gotta love the hdmi out... i love that. but come on... cut the guys some slack
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Thank you. I'm glad I'm not alone with those sentiments.

everyone had the chance to speak up months and months ago. A few people questioned the choice and then just shrugged and said OK. Nobody made a stink over the mini connectors... Nothing like the massive forum-whine session over cold weather performance or other issues.

As for David's comments on connector mating cycles and lifespans, I have similar questions. Only rated to 500 mating cycles seems pretty low and $580 for a breakout box or connector block or whatever you want to call it, doesn't exactly inspire thoughts of it being disposable.

Other than that, the break-out box looks great, and will be a great option to have in my kit. But I don't have any problems with mini-BNC either. I don't have my camera yet and those I will be working with in the near future haven't got theirs just yet either. But I have my mini-BNC cables and adapters here and ready. Already had some before RED came along and the ones I'm going to need for sure, I've bought or made. If I missed one or two configurations, I'll just make them when the camera gets here, like if I need longer ones or whatnot. It's not rocket science, nor is it like having a root-canal... It's cables. Standard cables.

FWIW, I like the mini-XLR arrangement. I know I've been criticized for saying it on the forums before, but here it goes again. I expect any sound guy that's worth his salt to have mini-xlr connectors and cables in his standard gear if he's going to be connecting to other peoples' equipment. True it doesn't always work this way, there's a lot of bull-headed attitudes in this industry. Too many people think that their equipment adheres to "THE STANDARD". In my way of thinking, any professional who manages cables, connections and must connect various pieces of equipment together needs to pimp-out their gear collection and be prepared to hook up with anything.
 
Evin Grant said:
BNC Cables just get trashed on set. They get rolled over by dollies, wound up wrong by PAs and walked on, twisted up and generally beat to hell, so in any normal kit they will be replaced every year anyway so buying very expensive cables is pointless if you can get a strong enough signal out of a cheaper one.
I don't know the details of the connectors but usually manufactures rate those connection spec conservatively so I would expect the useable life to be substantially longer than 500. However my plan all along was to use right angle BNC elbows to relieve cable strain, this would give you a $3 connector to continuously wear out instead of your Break out box or your camera connectors.
500256.gif
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Hey Evin, are you saying you will use some right angle connectors instead of your breakout box? Or you will use them in conjunction with the breakout box?
 
Brook Willard said:
Use the right-angle connectors on the breakout box.
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Why not just use the right angle connectors straight out of the camera? When Evin posted that, I assumed that that's what he meant. That's actually been my plan....do you see a disadvantage to it form or function wise?
 
My bad. Have to admit I wasn't paying close attention to the outputs for the sdi's, as the one I saw recently already had a custom breakout box on it, and I assumed that was to deal with the cable-coming-straight-out-of-the-camera. Thought that it was only the audio outs that were mini. So I guess mini bnc 90's don't exist? I get the feeling I'm crossing old ground....
 
they do have a 90, but you would need a mini to bnc 90. bottom line is this would put too much stress on the camera connection, hence the breakout box.
 
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