EFP/Broadcast Camera system? I am hoping...

[SimonFunkel]

With the recently announced price cuts, I am excited about someday using a Red Camera because of the price accessibility.

I have recently been hired to run the technical side of my church's communications department, and I will have to make a decision next year in relation to new Outside Broadcast and Studio options.

Red has done a great job in bringing cost effective Digital Cinema Cameras, but my needs are for primarily EFP/Broadcast/Studio cameras. Can the current systems be modified by Red and a line of 'broadcast' cameras be sold?

The requirements are definitely not out of reach of Red. The biggest main addition I believe is needed would be a remote control system, like a convention CCU - this can be achieved by a separate piece of hardware, or software to a computer.
Another nice addition would be an interface which carries down 1 cable:

• Video signal
• Intercom
• Camera Control information
• Audio from the camera
• Tally light info
• Program out return to camera

The basic camera would have a brain, lens mount, and audio input (mic/line), maybe headphones out. The other parts would be optional:

• Control interface connected to the camera
• Monitor
• Viewfinder
• Connections module
• Recorder module
• Battery module
• Power module

I hope that a brain and lens mount can cost around 3K...

I have always looked at DSLR cameras for under 3K and noticed that good image quality can be gotten at such prices... so what if they were converted to a no frills brain for EFP/Broadcast/Studio needs?


Is this idea at all possible? Or is my head in the clouds? :w00t:

 

[Ruff]

You are dreaming. Buy a broadcast camera from Sony, Panasonic etc.

 

[SimonFunkel]

You are dreaming. Buy a broadcast camera from Sony, Panasonic etc.

Why isn't it possible?

 

[Mark Kern]

We recently shot a whole week of live shows at our stage. We normally use Reds, but for broadcast work, we didn't want the Red fan's kicking on high during prolonged use (these were 3 hour shows, twice per day). So we rented Sony F3s for the day, but still used all our regular PL glass.

 

[SimonFunkel]

We recently shot a whole week of live shows at our stage. We normally use Reds, but for broadcast work, we didn't want the Red fan's kicking on high during prolonged use (these were 3 hour shows, twice per day). So we rented Sony F3s for the day, but still used all our regular PL glass.

The F3 is not an EFP camera, but I understand your reason for not wanting to use the Reds in that case. But Mark, why didn't you just go with EFP cameras?

I'm not hoping for just a simple set of modules to the existing cameras, I'm asking about Red developing a line of cameras based on their current cameras, but tailored to suit broadcast needs. For instance, broadcast doesn't need as great image quality as film, and thus may be able to lose the fan because of a lighter burden on the processing?

 

[Marc Wielage]

Live broadcast cameras are a specific, fundamentally-different animal from a camera that shoots in raw and is intended for motion picture production. Prototypes of live 4K (even 8K) broadcast cameras exist, but I think all you can buy today are regular 1080 HD cameras from Ikegami, JVC, Panasonic, Sony, and Toshiba (and I think Sony is by far the biggest seller). All are intended for normal Rec709 color space and have tally lights, intercom, remote camera control units, and all the other features needed for live broadcasting.

I don't think a DSLR is suitable, either, mainly because it will overheat and shut down after a certain amount of time. Real broadcast cameras can literally go 24/7 without incident -- and do this daily at CNN, NBC News (formerly MSNBC), Fox News, and all the other full-time cable networks.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Simon,

This thread should have been placed in the EFP/ENG and Red forum here on Red User.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?10-EFP-ENG-and-RED

Red One, Epic, and Scarlet have extensive EFP industry features built into the cameras, were intentionally designed by Red to be used in both cine and EFP production, and have been used for EFP work extensively since 2007 in the case of Red One. That said, the EFP use of Red cameras has been almost exclusively in mobile (non-hardlined) EFP work - in essence on TV programs which are shot to the cameras then edited in post - as opposed to the studio or trucked (live switched) hardlined EFP you're asking about. Red cameras simply weren't designed for that, and thus lack the studio EFP camera features you asked about.

Red's new Meizler Module definitely opens up some interesting possibilities for certain kinds of EFP work with Epic and Scarlet.
http://www.red.com/store/products/meizler-module

Currently for studio or trucked EFP work I's suggest you go for some of the many dedicated EFP cameras on the market which have the hardined EFP features you're looking for.

 

[Bobby Farokhzad]

Theortically it is possible. Practically, why would you ever want to do that? Red prides itself on being a digital cinema company and as such, their products are designed with cinematography in mind. To me, what you are trying to do calls for a solid ENG/EFP camera that can easily connect to a CCU.

 

[Zach Swena]

RED's solution to this would most likely be a CCU that would connect via the Meizler Module. They talked about an ipad app that could probably do the trick, but that seems like it would be hard to use in a broadcast environment. You are also talking about a $20k-$30k per camera not $3k. The advantage is you could use the same cameras for hard lined/switched productions and project shoots with the ability to record 4k in camera and edit later. The fan issue could be a real problem though.

Seriously though, if you are doing this for a church, why use such an expensive camera? Most of the stuff I do is similar in nature to what it sounds you are setting up for. Get a Blackmagic Design ATEM 1 M/E or 2 M/E, 3-6 Sony EX3 cameras used, buy an intercom and you are set. That is what a friend of mine has done. The EX3 is about $4k used and you can control almost everything in the camera with a LANC controller. Note: hold off on getting a broadcast panel for the ATEM if you go that route. I have a less expensive version in the works that will be much more cost effective. If you want more suggestions on a non RED equipment for a church broadcast setup, PM me and we can talk about it without cluttering the forum with such heresy.

Back to a RED solution... (dreaming)
It seems like RED could address this fairly easily if they redesigned the cooling system to be quieter, and made a CCU station that could hook up to the Meizler. This seems like something they should not pass up. RED seems obsessed with 4k from lens to screen though, which is a good thing. This would suggest that they would wait to make a camera for broadcast until there is a single connector 4k SDI solution. I would like to see what RED could do with a 5k raw link from the camera to a redmixer for switching, with a full debayer 4k output. Posted about that a while back and not much response. That would be a true 4k broadcast system. I think something like that would require an SDK for other industry partners and very powerful hardware.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Red's new Meizler Module definitely opens up some interesting possibilities for certain kinds of EFP work with Epic and Scarlet.

They might, but the cameras are not going to do well when you try to force them to run continuously for more than 45 minutes. Real ENG or HD broadcast cameras can (as I said above) run 24/7 without any problems with heat or noise.

 

[Steve Gibby]

They might, but the cameras are not going to do well when you try to force them to run continuously for more than 45 minutes. Real ENG or HD broadcast cameras can (as I said above) run 24/7 without any problems with heat or noise.

My 30+ year background is largely EFP (both non-hardlined and hardlined), and I've done extensive non-hardlined (mobile) EFP work with Red cameras since August 2007 - so I have a very good handle on those differences between traditional EFP camera and Red cameras.

A few years ago I served as a DP for a 10-Red One camera production, which aired on Palladia and VH1, of the classic rock band Journey in concert in Manila, Philippines. The concert was on a warm tropical night outside. All ten Red One cameras recorded continuously to an on-board Red Drive for the 3-hour concert. Each camera was also hardlined and switched via a director and TD to the giant iMag screen at the back of the stage. We had absolutely no overheating issues with any of the cameras - though they ran for 3 straight hours in tropical heat. Fast forward to Epic and Scarlet. Both those cameras have much more sophisticated and effect cooling systems than Red One - thus I see no problems for long runs in warm conditions. All hardlined EFP work doesn't involve 24/7 running of cameras. In fact a huge portion of it is sports events, music events, etc, where camera run times can vary from one to four hours depending on the event.

I know your an audio guy, and I totally agree with you - good clean audio is critical to all productions. That said, fan noise is only a problem in certain genres of hardlined and non-hardlined EFP work - but not a problem in many others in which the cameras essentially shoot MOS. Beyond that there are many clean audio workarounds in field production.

The Meizler Module will have lots of application for non-hardlined EFP work, and with some workarounds it will have some application for shorter camera run time hardlined EFP work.

Red One was intentionally designed by Red with many EFP camera features - and Epic and Scarlet have even more EFP camera features. Stuart English, who's been a key member of Red Team since the start, has a massive background in EFP camera development - with Panasonic and elsewhere. I've also been personally submitting EFP camera feature suggestions to Red since 2005.

The above said, the limitations in Red cameras for long run time hardlined EFP work prompted me at the end of my last post to recommend to the original poster that he consider one of the dedicated EFP cameras for the long run time hardlined church work he want to do. Its a better fit for his stated work...

 

[Michael AvMen]

I think this is not an Ideal Use for the RED, The F3 or C300 seem to be more suited for this , IMO..I dont know.