Editor Demanding I shoot 2k | Please Help

[Bobby Dalsey]

Hey gang,

I have an editor pushing for us to shoot 2k because of a quick turnaround. I am looking for a solution that makes everyone happy, and obviously I am not happy with shooting 2k. I have a few questions.

1. I know the crop factor is going to give me a deeper DOF, crop all the lenses, and obviously less sharpness/detail. What are some other ways 2k will impact the image over 5k? Any ways it will specifically limit low light performance?

2. Will shooting a higher compression ratio help speed up post? I read on here that it can actually cause longer render times.

3. Does anyone have a recommendation for cutting down render time in post by changing something in camera?

I know some of you will tell me how to speed up post (red rocket, GPU in new RedCine, etc) if you have editorial recommendations just keep them limited to software/technique. I can't go tell the producer we need the editor to buy a titan or something. This is a big job for me so thank you in advance for any help.

 

[Shane De Hoog]

I would kindly tell the editor to go kindly F himself if he's simply setting demands like that. The 2K is horrible, I would not ever use it unless for the higher FPS. You could get a external recorder - that's really all you can do if you want to comply to his demands without screwing up your DOF, cropped lenses etc.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Get your rocket and render out 2k files for him. He does not understand that shooting 2k and posting in 2k is two completely different things.
Just because he cant handle the files does not mean you should not deliver the best possible and best possible 2k files is rendered from a 5k source file. (or soon dragon 6k file).

So ask him what kind of files he wants. Then you and or the DIT deliver. 2k Proress 2k 444 rendered from 5k redlogfilm is really nice.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

+1 to what both Shane and Bjorn have said.

To speed up procesing in post, it's as you say -- Rocket, faster systems/ GPUs... If the systems have fast enough disk and internal I/O, you can actually get a small speed boost by shooting lower compression ratios. Lower compression means bigger files, but it also means less CPU power needed to decode the frames. It's the decompression that's the bottleneck, not the "de-bayer" process that people like to talk about. Higher compression ratios can sacrifice quality, but will give you longer record times and also longer decode/ render times in post. Not worth it, IMO. I usually shoot 5:1 on EPIC for 5K.

If the finish is intended to be HD and this is not something that needs to stand the test of time, like a commercial or dated material, then you can shoot 4K instead of 5K. Most any decent system will move 4K around rather easily these days. Not sure what workflow this editor is dealing with, but aside from old and EOL'd FCP7 and the previous to older versions of AVID, editing 4K+, even native R3Ds, is pretty simple. We do fast turn-around here all the time. It's mostly all corporate stuff, but some commercials and some editorial style pieces often delivering the day after they were shot. Not sure what else to say... This editor is probably trying to slog through 2013 with 5 year old software (FCP7) or hardware of the same era and he thinks he can just dictate how things are shot. For a while I ran across lots of editors, directors and producers with this same thought process. On the few shoots where I allowed it to happen, none were happy with the final outcome and a couple still tried to blame myself or the camera, even after I made it abundantly clear they were screwing up before we even shot a single frame.

I would just do what Bjorn suggests. Find out what format he wants to edit with. Shoot 4K / 5K and then deliver to the editor the original R3Ds along with the transcoded 2K files in his chosen format. Then it's all on him to take it from there.

 

[Eric Haase]

Hey gang,

I have an editor pushing for us to shoot 2k because of a quick turnaround. I am looking for a solution that makes everyone happy, and obviously I am not happy with shooting 2k. I have a few questions.

1. I know the crop factor is going to give me a deeper DOF, crop all the lenses, and obviously less sharpness/detail. What are some other ways 2k will impact the image over 5k? Any ways it will specifically limit low light performance?

2. Will shooting a higher compression ratio help speed up post? I read on here that it can actually cause longer render times.

3. Does anyone have a recommendation for cutting down render time in post by changing something in camera?

I know some of you will tell me how to speed up post (red rocket, GPU in new RedCine, etc) if you have editorial recommendations just keep them limited to software/technique. I can't go tell the producer we need the editor to buy a titan or something. This is a big job for me so thank you in advance for any help.

Your editor has no idea what he is talking about. Friends don't let friends shoot 2K. Aside from difficulty you will have achieving wide shots, the footage will be soft and noisy.

There are plenty of labs and DITs around that can transcode the 4K or 5K footage for you to any size and format for a very reasonable price. Probably a few on reduser that will offer up a straight transcode for very cheap. Shoot your footage and offload your RED RAW files onto a couple hard drives. Give those to someone who can turn them around in a couple hours for a low price.

 

[Robino_J]

If you don't have a rocket use the beta RCX wi GPU to transcode ProRes 2K- on iMac with GTX 680mx I get great results. 1 hour of footage full 4K debayer down to 2K is a little less than 2 hours.

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Agree with most everything Jeff, Shane and Bjorn advised.

One exception:

Shoot 4K / 5K and then deliver to the editor the original R3Ds along with the transcoded 2K files in his chosen format. Then it's all on him to take it from there.

Since it is the editor that is insisting 2K is good enough for the end client, provide him with 100% of the transcoded 2K files and one sample 4K / 5K R3D.
Tell them to try it on for size, see the difference for themselves and let you know when they would like the remainder so they can deliver a superior product.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

I would kindly tell the editor to go kindly F himself.

For fast turn around... I would ask him to learn FCPX or Première Pro... or swap the editor for one that knows how to use these tools! ;-)

Pat

 

[George Butterfield]

Hey gang,

I have an editor pushing for us to shoot 2k because of a quick turnaround.

Give your opinion to the boss (Producer?). From another angle, are you getting paid for this? Are the Actors any good? Is the Director any good? Is the script any good? Maybe just take the money and run. At least you will learn what a 2K production looks like, and the pros and cons of shooting in 2K.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Your editor has no idea what he is talking about. Friends don't let friends shoot 2K. Aside from difficulty you will have achieving wide shots, the footage will be soft and noisy.

There are plenty of labs and DITs around that can transcode the 4K or 5K footage for you to any size and format for a very reasonable price. Probably a few on reduser that will offer up a straight transcode for very cheap. Shoot your footage and offload your RED RAW files onto a couple hard drives. Give those to someone who can turn them around in a couple hours for a low price.

In this case I think the editor know s what he is talking about. He is saying that he cant edit anything bigger than 2k. Thats quite relevant. and probably true. Also it's not the editor that should go an get a rocket and get things sorted. It's not his job, It's the production and below them the DIT, or depending on the size of things, the DP.

What I'm trying to say is. Do not expect that the editor, (that usually edit in Avid, normally) will go and pick up a red rocket card and process the files that you shot just so he can do the edit. As rendering DNxHD files is and, and to me, should be, a DIT job.

If you expect that you can go and shoot r3d files and then the people down stream will just find it honky dory, I think you will run into trouble and people will dislike you as a DP and your camera. I think it's really important to understand the whole chain before promoting a RED workflow, and also, it kind of have to be adopted to the people involved. For example if the director want to use a certain editor then it's what system he prefer to use that sets the standard. It's really no good option to tell him "learn premiere" or any such thing. Same goes for VFX, grading and post. If they want DPX files then thats what you need to make sure is delivered, if they want trimmed r3d's than thats what they should get. Just giving them the source disk and some obscure edl might cause problems or it might be all good. But it's important to sort out before the producer gets all the numbers. If not the costs might float quite a bit and that will very much float back at you for insisting on using a certain camera and / or at RED systems and r3d's as a whole.

So my advice for this production would be that you ask the producer for a DIT with a fast computer and a redrocket that is accustomed to work around RED cameras, then ask the editor what his favorite 2k files format is and make sure thats delivered by the DIT. Then again normally the editor is not doing the online or grading so it might be so that he is even more happy if he gets normal HD proress proxy or LT files or low ress DNxHD to edit from then he sends his XML or EDL to the grading that grades the sellected takes straight from the r3d source and export dpx files (normally 10 bit) to online / VFX.... thats a very common / normal workflow.

Thats my tip of the day

 

[Bobby Dalsey]

Thanks guys this is all super helpful. So far it sounds like transcoding as we go is the best solution if they can't handle a 5k workflow.

 

[Bobby Dalsey]

In this case I think the editor know s what he is talking about. He is saying that he cant edit anything bigger than 2k. Thats quite relevant. and probably true. Also it's not the editor that should go an get a rocket and get things sorted. It's not his job, It's the production and below them the DIT, or depending on the size of things, the DP.

What I'm trying to say is. Do not expect that the editor, (that usually edit in Avid, normally) will go and pick up a red rocket card and process the files that you shot just so he can do the edit. As rendering DNxHD files is and, and to me, should be, a DIT job.

If you expect that you can go and shoot r3d files and then the people down stream will just find it honky dory, I think you will run into trouble and people will dislike you as a DP and your camera. I think it's really important to understand the whole chain before promoting a RED workflow, and also, it kind of have to be adopted to the people involved. For example if the director want to use a certain editor then it's what system he prefer to use that sets the standard. It's really no good option to tell him "learn premiere" or any such thing. Same goes for VFX, grading and post. If they want DPX files then thats what you need to make sure is delivered, if they want trimmed r3d's than thats what they should get. Just giving them the source disk and some obscure edl might cause problems or it might be all good. But it's important to sort out before the producer gets all the numbers. If not the costs might float quite a bit and that will very much float back at you for insisting on using a certain camera and / or at RED systems and r3d's as a whole.

So my advice for this production would be that you ask the producer for a DIT with a fast computer and a redrocket that is accustomed to work around RED cameras, then ask the editor what his favorite 2k files format is and make sure thats delivered by the DIT. Then again normally the editor is not doing the online or grading so it might be so that he is even more happy if he gets normal HD proress proxy or LT files or low ress DNxHD to edit from then he sends his XML or EDL to the grading that grades the sellected takes straight from the r3d source and export dpx files (normally 10 bit) to online / VFX.... thats a very common / normal workflow.

Thats my tip of the day

Totally agree Bjorn, I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't agree with him telling me how to shoot then turned around and told him how to edit.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Thanks guys this is all super helpful. So far it sounds like transcoding as we go is the best solution if they can't handle a 5k workflow.

It's not necesserely a 5k workflow, just the rendering can be HD/2k from the 5k R3D originals. The thing is : can they handle native R3D in their workflow? FCPX, AE, PP, AVID AMA, Resolve... and then make the output from full debayer to HD/2K.

Pat

 

[Björn Benckert]

Thanks guys this is all super helpful. So far it sounds like transcoding as we go is the best solution if they can't handle a 5k workflow.

Sounds like the right way to go.

But just to make clear, as of today I would say that nobody can handle a 5k workflow. Basically your editing shuts down if you use massive amount of layers in your timeline and such so for that reason editing with proxies makes more sense for most scenarios. Then whne done editing you go back and relink to the original footage, so just because he does not want to edit in 5k does not necessarily mean you cant get a 5k finnish.

edit: Just as patrick stated.

 

[paulherrin]

if you're so crunched for time that you can't transcode, get an hd recorder/proxy module and give him those files to edit with so you can always resync later

 

[Patrick Tresch]

if you're so crunched for time that you can't transcode, get an hd recorder/proxy module and give him those files to edit with so you can always resync later

Or change the camera.

Epic with external recorder is no added FPS, no added DR, no added Resolution for zoom in /stabilisation, no added RAW capabiliites and a much slower delivery (or more expensive using a DIT with Rocket). Either shoot Epic and use those + or change the camera.

Pat

 

[Manfred Lopez]

Or change the camera.

Epic with external recorder is no added FPS, no added DR, no added Resolution for zoom in /stabilisation, no added RAW capabiliites and a much slower delivery (or more expensive using a DIT with Rocket). Either shoot Epic and use those + or change the camera.

Pat

Yup, these are the kinds of situations were people choose the Alexa. In the end practicality wins out.

 

[paulherrin]

In the end practicality wins out.

that's funny, i was going to say survivability...
or what's that other word?
oh yeah, quality.

 

[Jan Reiff]

please dont´t shoot 35mm, take Super 8mm

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Yup, these are the kinds of situations were people choose the Alexa. In the end practicality wins out.

And I'm really happy other people choose the Alexa. Epic is only for the Braves!!!

;-)

Pat