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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Early Reviews - Terminator Salvation at 14% on Rotton Tomatoes

Tom said:
The reality is that some day machines will replace biology, or that machine intelligence will help to create enhanced biology that can keep pace. This to me is not a good or bad thing, just reality.

LOL, BTW, this is why this forum is so awesome. It only takes 10 posts before we are off onto an interesting tangent!
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This may be a pretty simple example, but hits close just the same.
My father recently had a section of his aorta replaced with a cloth tube, and 5 days later a pace maker was put in.

If it were not for this technology, he would not be with us right now.

As simple as that is, and although it happens ALL the time, it's a precursor to what is about to come. We cannot get away from the fact that machines are a part of us, and technology will only allow the intelligence of machines to continue to advance. How far we allow that to get?
I just saw this the other day:

http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fiction-News.asp?NewsNum=2291

"....and she can experess anger". Say what?

Now lets get crazy!

Plot: Stem cell researcher builds a robot.....GO! :rofl:
 
Tom said:
Heh, you got me! I actually have begun writing a script that I will finish this summer that is very, very ambitious along these same lines.
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Crap. The race is on. That's my dream project too. :D
 
Haven't seen it yet, but don't think I'll be able to avoid its allure enough to forgo the theatrical run.

To avoid disappointment, I plan on meditating on how completely shite T3 was prior to entering the theater.

The less you expect, the more you'll be pleased...as much as I hate to say that, because it doesn't help us in getting anything better out of the present-day machine, but I don't think the suits are listening to anyone's pleas for substance.
 
I saw T4 about 6 months ago and I didn't like it then and I'm almost sure I won't like it now. The effects are kind of cool but the story suffers so much from the writers painting themselves into a corner...or at least that's how I saw the way it ended.

McG shouldn't be allowed to direct.

Tom's idea sounded way more interesting.
 
Tom said:
I don't know the plot of T4 at all. Perhaps you are right. I've been avoiding all spoilers.

In terms of human vs transhuman intelligence, the reality is that any intelligence spawned by humans will only be an extension -- good or bad -- of our own consciousness and intelligence. The only thing that will prevent greater-than-human intelligence is some type of cataclysm, plague, or massive nuclear annihilation.

The reality is that some day machines will replace biology, or that machine intelligence will help to create enhanced biology that can keep pace. This to me is not a good or bad thing, just reality.

LOL, BTW, this is why this forum is so awesome. It only takes 10 posts before we are off onto an interesting tangent!
Click to expand...


It might be your reality. But is it The Reality? Does your son's toy replace your son?
 
If your son's toy is more intelligent than your son it's an insult to call it a toy.

There is some debate now whether or not we have an accurate estimation of the processing power of the brain. So it might be an additional 50 years before we actually hit the capacity of the human brain.

But it's beside the point. If progress continues at the current rate then it's inevitable before the raw processing power of a computer is dramatically greater than the human mind.

At that point you can start to brute force problems which currently require 'intelligent software'. It's estimated that something like 60% I believe of our brain is devoted to image processing. Our brains are predominantly GPUs. Only a very very small part of them is devoted to higher conceptual bits. For the 'ideal human' our anatomy is actually very poorly engineered. We aren't very well designed for logical and thoughtful complex problems.

We can't create software right now that comes close to the human mind just like 20 years ago we couldn't create 3D Renders which looked photorealistic. Even with a super computer we simply couldn't work quickly enough to create efficient software. It's kind of a strange catch 22 of development. In order to develop efficient software and systems you need computers fast enough to run the software in a brute force manner.

We need faster computers to create better AI. But when we do have faster computers we can try millions of more ideas even faster. And as soon as we can create an AI smart enough to work on AI problems then it becomes trivial to do something humans can't do: throw the entire computing grid at the problem.

Once computers start designing faster computers then you've reached a tipping point where their own advancements accellerate their own advancements...

Human beings are fundamentally the same hardware for the last 100k+ years. Our software gets minor tweaks based on culture and environment but by and large you could dress up a human from 50k years ago and put him in school at a young age with no one the wiser. Once you start dealing with computer systems though you get into the territory where you can start to engineer behavior.

If I don't like for whatever reason that I waste time on REDUser I could change my desire subroutines to desire working on my personal projects instead. If you want to quit smoking it's simple you just change the software.

When it comes to law and order you start to get into sticky territory. Is it legal to forbid people from killing other people. Put a small chip in your brain. Monitor everything you're doing and if the intent is to kill and mame have it stop you and wait for the authorities. Seeing as you are incapable of killing and aren't really a threat to anyone there is no reason to actually imprison you, but maybe you lose some rights. Maybe we decide that society needs to add a little bit more careful, a little more restrictive violence inhibition.

And that's ignoring the potentials for sharing. If you think we chat a lot online and through cellphones. Imagine if REDUser wasn't a place you visited it was just part of who you were? You will read every post on REDUser but posts will be far more intimate and far more informative. Since you can absorb knowledge at 2x the rate every 18 months you'll also share far more and learn far more.

What would have taken years before to read will now be hours. You can be you... just hardware accellerated for the first time in the history of the world. And getting faster.

Your child's toy is smarter than your child if he hasn't been augmented. Your child's toy will be gentler, wiser and better informed than your child and in every recognizeable way your child's toy will be superior to your child. Does he replace him? Maybe. Maybe instead of having a child you nurture a fresh piece of software and tailor design him as you think best. Maybe the concept of children will seem kind of silly since you know he'll just be disadvantaged his entire development and augmented anyway so why start with bad hardware that needs upgrading?

I doubt that enhanced biology will keep pace. I think the children born over the next 50 years will be the last. I think my generation will be the generation that either is one of the last to die or else one of the first to be backed up to software and run on emulation. But I don't think we'll be the people who invent the technology to imortalize ourselves. I think it'll be our children and their digital children which design the hardware since we'll be too stupid.

One of the largest impediments to 'backing up' people is experimentation. Millions of people would need to be killed in the tests. That's unacceptable. So we're going to have to have a working simulated analog which can be saved. Tested. Reset. Which means our digital offspring come before our salvation.
 
The holy grail of all this is a little difficult to conceive but look at it like this.

I have an individual point of view which is contructed out of memory. That memory shapes my thought process and in essence creates a sense of self. The self then becomes the defining entity that differentiates between an 'I' inside and everything else. For a couple of thousand years meditation was supposed to break that barrier down, dissolve the 'I' inside. With no interpreting 'I', it is supposed 'truth' or perhaps a better term, 'reality' became self evident regardless of interpretation. Morals have no place in that scenario and a lot of people when confronted by it become more than a little scared. But if there is no self through which to view, then time, distance and any form of measurement becomes meaningless. The whole becomes one, and the one the whole. Sounds cliched I know but it's kinda true.

But now we have AI. So perhaps with AI we are playing the same game, creating a point of view that will eventually have a sense of self and we are back with the same problem. Nothing has changed. Self equals desire equals conflict and that comes with it. The machines fight for survival like every other creature out there. That's got to be natural in its structure, internal and external, the good and the bad and so on.

Where my real interest lies (in fiction) is where the 'I' and the 'not I' becomes grey, intangible. This is why Phillip K. Dick is so popular, people recognise the unknown and fascinating territory of 'not being myself'. He plays with that a great deal between taking a lot of speed. Science may be able to push those barriers. So for instance through bio engineering can we create a human brain that has intelligence but somehow refuses to operate in the loop of the self? Voila, we have a genetically created Buddha! Or do we have something else?
 
Also have a look at the holographic universe theory by Bohm and Pribram. That may open unknown doors in real hard science.
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
If I don't like for whatever reason that I waste time on REDUser I could change my desire subroutines to desire working on my personal projects instead. If you want to quit smoking it's simple you just change the software.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately (or fortunately) the brain doesn't really work like that. It's not truly compartmentalised. You cannot locate specific memories in specific cells (again look at Pribram). Reprogramming means changing the whole brain. So to change your time spent on REDUser might mean just deciding not to. If however you try to use method it implies you are using memories to construct that method and since memories are the old brain you are stuck in the same loop. It has been suggested that repetitive behaviour actually thickens cells connections within the brain and only trauma and personal crisis can break them down, insight too. In meditation insight is called direct perception but it's debatable what exactly that is and is often disputed whether it is possible at all. You can only discover it for yourself.

Mind you, still looking forward to T4
 
All that AI techno-bullcrap is pretty groundless.

Intelligence and Consciousness are two different things.

The capability to think doesn't make you self-aware or conscious. And vice versa - you can be perfectly self-aware and conscious without actually thinking. (Feels pretty good, BTW :))

The intellect is just one faculty or a tool of the human mind. “Intelligence” is not a term, identical to “Consciousness” or "Self-Awareness".

We actually don't even understand how our own, "natural" consciousness “works” and what it actually is. How could we even speak about building an artificial one?!

Ridiculous.

And Artificial Intelligence was invented with computers, something more - computers are artificial intelligence.

But Consciousness or Self-Awareness are something else.

--
Just my 2 crazy neurons.
 
karapetkov said:
.... you can be perfectly self-aware and conscious without actually thinking. (Feels pretty good, BTW :))
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That's how I felt after reading the last posts from Gavin and maguffin...
I gotta read more. :embarassed:
 
karapetkov said:
All that AI techno-bullcrap is pretty groundless.

Intelligence and Consciousness are two different things.

The capability to think doesn't make you self-aware or conscious. And vice versa - you can be perfectly self-aware and conscious without actually thinking. (Feels pretty good, BTW :))

The intellect is just one faculty or a tool of the human mind. “Intelligence” is not a term, identical to “Consciousness” or "Self-Awareness".

We actually don't even understand how our own, "natural" consciousness “works” and what it actually is. How could we even speak about building an artificial one?!

Ridiculous.

And Artificial Intelligence was invented with computers, something more - computers are artificial intelligence.

But Consciousness or Self-Awareness are something else.

--
Just my 2 crazy neurons.
Click to expand...

Tell that to Skynet!!
 
karapetkov said:
All that AI techno-bullcrap is pretty groundless.

Intelligence and Consciousness are two different things.

The capability to think doesn't make you self-aware or conscious. And vice versa - you can be perfectly self-aware and conscious without actually thinking. (Feels pretty good, BTW :))

The intellect is just one faculty or a tool of the human mind. “Intelligence” is not a term, identical to “Consciousness” or "Self-Awareness".

We actually don't even understand how our own, "natural" consciousness “works” and what it actually is. How could we even speak about building an artificial one?!

Ridiculous.

And Artificial Intelligence was invented with computers, something more - computers are artificial intelligence.

But Consciousness or Self-Awareness are something else.

--
Just my 2 crazy neurons.
Click to expand...


Studies of the human brain have yet to find what would be called the "seat of conciousness" Many investigators in this area consider the "self" or "awareness" to just be a result of the many "sub-routines" that make up our stream of thought. All of the small programs that make our heart beat, our lungs pull air in and out and the instinctual reactive portions coming from deep down in the lizard portions (Amygdalae) as well as the higher intellectual parts of our brain (Prefrontal lobe, etc).

So, it may only be a matter of creating a "mechanical computational device" (computer) that has as many or more "sub-routines" running that are linked together to create what we consider so special about ourselves "self-awareness"!

And then the games begin....... Will it have morality and what flavor? Many humans do not share the same morality as other humans. No reason why a machine will share our virtues or our faults. They would have their own based on their experiences.

So, it seems that it may be possible that we will, even accidently, create an intelligence of some type that thinks differently than it was originally programmed, especially when you consider that we are now creating "self-learning" robotic systems.

SkyNet is not that far-fetched and yes, I have read a lot of science fiction but I read as much science fact! :)
 
karapetkov said:
All that AI techno-bullcrap is pretty groundless.

....

Ridiculous.
Click to expand...

I see that we have a lot of work to do before recruiting you into our Transhumanist cult. :reddevil:
 
Alan Skinner said:
Studies of the human brain have yet to find what would be called the "seat of conciousness" Many investigators in this area consider the "self" or "awareness" to just be a result of the many "sub-routines" that make up our stream of thought. All of the small programs that make our heart beat, our lungs pull air in and out and the instinctual reactive portions coming from deep down in the lizard portions (Amygdalae) as well as the higher intellectual parts of our brain (Prefrontal lobe, etc).
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That's just hipotheses.

The consciousness is not directly observable, therefore - not a legitimate object for testing and scientific analysis, therefore - beyond the field of human science.

... Ergo... my mind... is... gone... :sifone:
 
Resistance is FUTILE, Rado!
 
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