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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DSMC3 Wish list

Here's a crazy idea: dual-pixel ND. if one can do a fast-enough readout of half the pixels in, say, 1/500th of a second, then two half-frames could be combined for 1/250th of a second. Four half-frames could be combined for 1/125th. 10 for 1/48th. This cuts light hitting the sensor by 10x (slightly more than 3 stops) while providing fairly decent approximation (10 samples) of "normal" motion blur.
 
Andrew Dease said:
Why is internal ND such a big deal to people? Can't you just raise the shutter if needed? We will clearly be getting it but wondering why it is #1 on so many people's lists.
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Well... if you raise (actually lowers) the shutter speed, then obvisouly the shutter will get lower. You know, motion blur or lack of motion blur and that sort of thing ?
You can't always have a variND in your mattebox or on the lens, especially outside with sky, clouds, water and leaves, where a ND is really needed, because variNDs are just double polarizers.
 
Lee Saxon said:
Komodo spec level and price point in the same body/form factor as the rest of DSMC3, sharing media, monitors, modules, protocols etc. I understand Jarred says it's mainly intended as a crash cam (for which "smaller" was the most important part), but as he acknowledges himself 95% of the people who buy it will be peons like me for whom the Komodo price-point is their A cam. No sense not giving them a more painless path to upgrade into the higher end cams.
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When Jarred ever sad that. You know you can read Komodo thread by pushing red team button.
 
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Just some thoughts on reliability
- Higher reliability when using pre record. On our last trip we had 3 crashes that causes us to loose some of our best footage.
- Saving to 2 cards at once so we have better backup.
- If camera crash do not destroy the last written file, but save it in such a way that it can be recovered upon boot.
- More advanced file system than Fat32 that has better file structure backups
- Faster SSD for offloading, would be nice with 2000 MB/s read/write speed.
- A pre record that never stops. Right now when you press stop and start it takes several seconds for it to activate again, this is usually when something cool happens. Being able to always have it on would be very helpful and then

And of course, better slow motion, etc
Cheers,
Andreas
 
:yesnod: Internal ND - Cameras like the Venice demonstrate internal ND can offer real advantages with little penalty
:yesnod: Shallow flange depth - This is a no brainer as it costs nothing to push the sensor forward and there are so many advantages from a new generation of glass to adding Modules behind existing longer flange depth glass
:yesnod: Faster UI - My experience with the 8K Monstro can be so frustrating when it comes to focus as 1920x1080 doesn't cut it in a 8K world and the 1:1 zoom in function is so slow its frankly embarrassing on a high end cinema camera.
:yesnod: 4K monitoring output- see Above
:yesnod: Support for 1:1 zoom on selected monitor paths even during recording - See Above
:yesnod: Quieter fans - While each generation has got quieter (My Epic MX nickname was the "hairdryer") DSMC3 needs to be quiter again
:yesnod: Dual readout sensor like Sony and Panasonic - This technology allows more choice and flexibility
:yesnod: I should have put this first but real and powerful Autofocus is needed as demonstrated by the Sony FX9 and Canon C500mk2. This is a potential Achilles heel for Red as Sony and Canon are leveraging their R&D and experience with DSLR AF with tools like advanced face and eye tracking tools for focus. Do not misunderstand me as I am not suggesting AF that works idependantly of the operator like some dumb old video camera. I'm talking about powerful tools that allow the operator to decide where focus should be and the camera does it. I would guess that Sony FX9 AF tech will end up in the Venice Mk2 and when people understand just how "efficient" this tool can be cameras with only manual focus will be behind the eight ball. Red should not ignore this issue in 2020
 
Tom Gleeson said:
:yesnod: Internal ND - Cameras like the Venice demonstrate internal ND can offer real advantages with little penalty
:yesnod: Shallow flange depth - This is a no brainer as it costs nothing to push the sensor forward and there are so many advantages from a new generation of glass to adding Modules behind existing longer flange depth glass
:yesnod: Faster UI - My experience with the 8K Monstro can be so frustrating when it comes to focus as 1920x1080 doesn't cut it in a 8K world and the 1:1 zoom in function is so slow its frankly embarrassing on a high end cinema camera.
:yesnod: 4K monitoring output- see Above
:yesnod: Support for 1:1 zoom on selected monitor paths even during recording - See Above
:yesnod: Quieter fans - While each generation has got quieter (My Epic MX nickname was the "hairdryer") DSMC3 needs to be quiter again
:yesnod: Dual readout sensor like Sony and Panasonic - This technology allows more choice and flexibility
:yesnod: I should have put this first but real and powerful Autofocus is needed as demonstrated by the Sony FX9 and Canon C500mk2. This is a potential Achilles heel for Red as Sony and Canon are leveraging their R&D and experience with DSLR AF with tools like advanced face and eye tracking tools for focus. Do not misunderstand me as I am not suggesting AF that works idependantly of the operator like some dumb old video camera. I'm talking about powerful tools that allow the operator to decide where focus should be and the camera does it. I would guess that Sony FX9 AF tech will end up in the Venice Mk2 and when people understand just how "efficient" this tool can be cameras with only manual focus will be behind the eight ball. Red should not ignore this issue in 2020
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All of the above!

I think I posted here before but let me add my 2 cents again. I think with the Komodo Rolling, the big Brothers should be getting the much deserved attention at the same time:

1- Internal ND's a must. Or a 1st Party Kipertie option for different mounts.
2- Different intelligent mounts for EF, R , Leica, Nikon, PL , L , Leica M and even the Sony E mount.
3- If a Medium format sensor is coming, allow for fuji and Hasselblad intelligent lens operation
4- In Body Stabilization. This I think will be the most difficult part of the DSMC3 body, but I have faith Red can do it.
5- Small form factor and modular. I understand the need for a Ranger, but the current DSMC2 form factor allows absolute versatility too. Please keep the modularity concept. Can be introduced on par with a Ranger option
6- More Frame Rates at 8K .
7- A better stills extraction workflow both on camera and in Redcine X. Internal Hyperlapses settings.
6- Upgrade path to include sensor transition for Monstro users. I don't need 12K or medium format, I just need more frame rates, internal ND and all the advantages of a closer/shallower flange depth and new body.

Again, can't wait ! Completely on board!
 
If the OLPF's are still interchangeable, might be interesting to have a Tungsten and a Daylight OLPF. Maybe Tungsten gets a small gain boost and the RED channel slowed down a bit. enough gain to help help the blue channel in orange low light, but not so much gain that it hurts Dynamic Range.

We are well past that point in development, I am sure. But while we are wishing. That said, the STHP filter is doing some very nice things in tungsten.
 
James Sielaff said:
If the OLPF's are still interchangeable, might be interesting to have a Tungsten and a Daylight OLPF. Maybe Tungsten gets a small gain boost and the RED channel slowed down a bit. enough gain to help help the blue channel in orange low light, but not so much gain that it hurts Dynamic Range.

We are well past that point in development, I am sure. But while we are wishing. That said, the STHP filter is doing some very nice things in tungsten.
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It would be cool if they would borrow from ENG cameras with a dual turret filter system. They have four slots of ND in the 1st/front turret and 4 slots for color correction in the 2nd/rear turret, but update it slightly. Keep the front four slots for ND and the rear could be different OLPF's and color correction to fine tune for say 3200K or 5600K.
 
After seeing some Komodo videos, I can clearly see a problem forming with RED's operations and with the trio of the Canon R5, Sony A7S III, and Blackmagic Ursa 12K coming out, it gives a good indication on what RED needs to do with DSMC3.

1. RED needs to pick up the pace and release a camera. Sure, there was a progression from R1 to DSMC then DSMC2 but now it's basically coming down to the same camera box on repeat, Komodo is just a little stripped down with another 6K sensor tossed in. A super lightweight model should have been done and over by now and DSMC3 will need to stay on track and focus.

2. DSMC3 needs to be 8K minimum and have 12K/16K/24K on the high end with clean ISO 3200 performance at the least. Some may say that it's too soon for beyond 8K to be a priority but Blackmagic showed that it can be done right now and they probably have a pocket version already in the works, we are at that time.

3. DSMC3 needs to be cheaper than RED cameras have ever been. Yes, Komodo fits nicely into a starting camera but we need an 8K step up camera and a 12K+ camera to aim for and for not much more than Blackmagic's offerings. I might surmise that things could drop down to the $20,000 level for the highest camera again and there would be a $10,000 and $17,500 option on top of Komodo and the 8K step up camera which could be 8K for $8K.

4. If DSMC3 can't compete on resolution beyond 8K or 12K, then it's probably time for RED to go full frame and even medium format! With video-capable medium format cameras like Fuji's and Hasselblad's new offerings and the Alexa 65 being used more often, it's showing that there's a growing market for medium format cinematography and RED could get on it and at higher resolutions than 4K and 6K.

5. DSMC3 needs 4K+ monitoring and/or very high zoom ratio punch-in options because no one is able to tell if the camera is 100% in focus when using wide lenses and for the most critical VFX work you need absolute clear focus. External monitor manufacturers can only do so much digital punch in on the monitor feed and it would be much better if the camera could do it internally first. My Canon 5D Mark II had a 10x punch in that was great and my Sony A7S only goes to 7x which helps a little but my Pocket 4K annoyed me with its 2x zoom which is not very helpful at all (I haven't checked to see if a new firmware may have fixed this yet, been stuck in post). My RED One MX had 720p and we only missed focus slightly on a few shots but that required so much double and triple checking that it did slow us down on set the whole way through compared to having 1080p monitoring which would have really helped but now with 4K monitors abound and 8K+ cameras, we're going need 4K output just to see now.

6. New innovation is key and DSMC3 should go back to revisiting HDRx and have full accurate HDR processing, even if you have to drop down resolution to do it. No ghosting, no motion artifacts, all seamless capture. Even having a light field model of the camera could be possible but that might require a whole different thought process. Spheron had an HDR 1080p camera prototype at Siggraph one year and it was amazing and was beyond what can be done with adjusting ISO in RAW in post, this kind of camera should be possible now, even if it's not 8K. Having this functionality would give some major artistic options and could even be just a start towards what would come with DSMC4.
 
OMG !!! Red PLEASE do not go past 8K on the new DSMC3. Arri and Sony have wisely chosen the 6K mark and in a world where 4K is the maximum delivery resolution we do not need anything more than 8K. Apart from marketing and bragging rights anything higher than 8K is an actual detriment to getting the cameras on to productions. Most producers and even post houses are very resistant to larger and larger files. If Red can do some codec magic and somehow make 12K camera original files smaller than DSMC2 files that would help but there is no push from productions looking for more resolution. Apart from the Blackmagic 12K camera* which fits into a lower budget category the Red 8K cameras are already the industry's highest resolution cameras.

I have been involved in testing a 9K camera and it its hard to take advantage of this high resolution. So far very few lenses have been able to do justice to it with the exception of the Arri Signatures and some of the Sigma lenses. Most glass needs to be stopped down to F5.6 to get close to resolving more than the sensor ( and who wants that.)

I understand that there are scenarios where resolutions past 8K will be useful but the reality of day to day "normal" shooting there is only very limited value. Producers and post houses resistance to Red Workflows due to the computer processing intensity of the footage is lowering but just as computers are catching up to the demands of 8K R3D it would be a bummer to see Red push cameras even further. I have just NEVER EVER had a client ask for more resolution but to this day I still get asked can we just shoot this at 6K or 4K on my sweet 8K Monstro.

Sensors larger than Full Frame could be interesting but the next logical step would be to build a sensor that would match the 65mm format but to be honest I suspect it would be a low volume camera.

I bet many Blackmagic 12K cameras will have the camera set to 6K for alot of the day to day work.
 
Red has shown that it can do a really good global shutter. The global shutter should be the heart of DSMC3. Integrated frame averaging would also be fun, and better in some ways than HDRx.

Tom Gleeson said:
Sensors larger than Full Frame could be interesting but the next logical step would be to build a sensor that would match the 65mm format but to be honest I suspect it would be a low volume camera.
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I agree with most of that. I have to object to sensors larger than VV unless:

1. Resolution is very high

2. Sensitivity is off the charts (e.g. A7sIII)

The film paradigm of large surface area does not apply proportionally to digital.
 
#1 Above all else - Please stop the resolution wars, it's not needed past 6K for 4K delivery.

I think there should be an option to record 4K or even 1080 with ANY sensor crop selected (i.e. Ultra Full Frame, Full Frame, and Super35 modes should ALL be able to record 4K and 1080)

High-end - 8K "Ultra Full Frame"(IMAX format 70x48.5mm sensor), with 6K Full Frame mode, and 4K Super35 mode, Built-in ND.
Mid-end Cinema - 6K Full Frame (36mmx24mm sensor) with a 4K Super35 crop mode, No ND's (smaller)
Mid-end Documentary - 6K Full Frame, 4K Super35, Decent audio Pre-amps, XLR audio (or new SLIM ightweight XLR audio module)
Low-end - less frame rate, higher compression.


Compatability with DSMC2 modules

Focus on Color Science Versatility
Partner with Kodak and Fujifilm to create Proprietary LUT conversion packages for REDLog3G10 and REDLog3G12 to emulate a few classic film stocks, and maybe a couple new ones (IMHO it's your best way to take a bite out of Arri's business, because it's all about their color science.
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
BUILT IN ND Filters and NEW EVF pls.....
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would love to see better integration with the evf.


the issue with the current OLED EVF’s is almost certainly happening in the camera body and possibly not the EVF’s fault.

yes, the optics are a little below industry standards. the focus plane on the optics are slightly curved, so when the operator looks towards the edges, their eye has to adjust focus, and it causes eye fatigue a little faster than some higher quality evf’s.



Dsmc2, DXL2, and Ranger bodies have 4 HD video outputs. For DSMC2 the Left Lcd/evf port is shared with the hdmi out. so if an hdmi device is plugged in, the left port goes blue. Same for the Eanger, except hdmi becomes “MON” and is now sdi. MON and Hdmi out looks fine. left port looks awful. makes one assume it is a firmware issue.

Why Red cannot send a proper video signal to their self described “premium” Oled EVF. it is one of the more funny things to see coming from a supposed “cinema” brand. certainly ironic.

Panavision has no issues apparently.

just likely sloppy design on Red’s part, and they haven’t had to come back to it. But i can tell you, everyone not on reduser is talking about it.
 
Some suggestions in here just seem unnecessary for a whole new infrastructure. What can't we do with the cameras we have now? Sure we can get more resolution, less noise, larger sensors but at this point in time, when we have the 8K Monstro, who really cares? A 10K full format sensor won't really be that big of a deal.

There's already a thread about this and I listed my picks for a next-gen camera system.

- Accurate per frame Z depth metadata at native resolution.
- Accurate camera tracking data for VFX (together with Z Depth you don't need greenscreens and don't need to do camera tracks in post)
- 18 stops of actual usable DR
- Clean of noise at ISO800 8K
- Lighter camera body
- Accurate tracking autofocus

Minor things like outputs and stuff can be solved, but these things would create a proper generational jump and would revolutionize filmmaking.
 
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