DSMC2. Unified.

[Morgan Ryan]

Oh, I have no complaint, just to be clear. I'm very happy with this unification. I'm in a 'sweet spot' with my E-W. Just weighing my options going forward, that's all.

 

[Matthew Quinn]

Oh, I have no complaint, just to be clear. I'm very happy with this unification. I'm in a 'sweet spot' with my E-W. Just weighing my options going forward, that's all.

I would say Epic-W is in a very sweet spot.

Even with out changing a thing it’s a great helium camera.

Can move to Gemini or weapon grade internals, or like I said just stay as is

 

[Troy Bakewell]

Jarred, I agree with many others here...too much depreciacion on Weapon MG and CF bodies.

We believed in RED and now we are taking a huge hit with new pricing.

Please consider re-thinking the upgrade prices...


MG Weapon + 15k = Monstro
CF Weapon + 10k =Monstro

+1 here.

 

[Patrick Kendall]

Sure but you skippped quite afew beats. Not paying the 10k Monstro from CF upgrade, even though Jarred quite clearly stated before that closed that VV / monstro or what ever it was then called would be shit more expansive later. Jumping on that would not only give you a monstro but also a helium while you waited.

Then you could have upgraded CF to helium, then to monstro.

Now, sure we that bought monstro straight of the bat and paid in advance to a chance. Got it way cheap and early. Those that jumped on these white heliums paid a premium, got camera early but also a half arsed color sience, they get some added love now. But if you bought the CF and just held on to it and did not pick up on the helium or monstro offer that where both quite insanly good. Then why would that camera now this much later be worth so much more than W. You had quite some time for ROI, no?

I think the conversation that Jarred had with CF Weapon buyers who didn't put in the extra $10k for VV Dragon was that we would have the best chance and first chance at VV ownership out of anybody. This was back when DSMC2 was divided into two-tiers of ownership: CF and Mg. And I know the general conversations that they were having with us as we ordered, was that there was no guarentee of anything if we didn't do the $10k NAB sensor deal. Seems like they were giving it away for that price, now... There were alot of statements made about the sensor being $20K for CF Weapon owners, but nothing official. It seemed palatable to me to wait and see if the price was only going to be double and deal with it later... BTW, I not trying hold Jarred to any of this at all. But it was part of the sales pitch for CF ownership..We had to buy CF Weapon and be a top-tier owner to get VV. And we've been a group a long time.. very patient and loyal along the way. We've been understanding and supportive for the Red cause. I know Jarred's been very good at explaining all the issues with VV, I won't hold any of his words against him.... yes, this is all water under the bridge.. I'm happy to pay what ever the VV Monstro is truely worth.

But, my point is that CF Weapon owners were here from the start of DSMC2. Don't forget our group. This last go around the value of our gear dropped, which is to be expected, but nothing else was offered to us... our prices for Monstro actually jumped up to $40k (until a few of us complained about it.) I know discounts are a privilege, but geesh, if all the other siblings are eating cake, can we have some cake too? We are kind of like the middle child now with Stormtroopers as the eldest, given lots of love and admiration by the parent, and Epic-W owners the baby brother who can do no wrong, and now without their training wheels....

yes Bjorn, I think i've definatley reached ROI and I"ve been a very happy Red owner since Epic MX.. I use my camera for more than DP jobs, I use it for the films I direct and my passion projects. I LOVE my Red Weapon and I don't want to change. It's a beautiful camera the way it is. I did not take the Helium upgrade, because my clients only ask for Dragon and DSMC2 body has been a dream. My camera has shot all the Astronaunt INTVs on Nat Geo's One Strange Rock. And there's talk of Emmy nominations and a season two. I've shot a feature film with it.. So at the end of the day, I'm good.. But I won't getting a Helium sensor.. it came out of left field and has a look that isn't what I want.. and lets face it, Monstro I've heard is the most like Dragon VV that was promised.. so that will be my upgrade path that was talked about 3 yrs ago.. i'll get there when I can afford it. I would be happy with a s35 Monstro if they made that... I just hate this FOMO syndrome i'm having right now, I feel enourmous pressure to upgrade or pay more later. If there's any wiggle room for better Monstro VV pricing for CF owners I hope they consider it. thanks for listening.

 

[Andrew Bydlon]

I'm on the same boat, E-W owner waiting out the VV Monstro to drop in price. My ideal sensor-crop-price choice right now is Gemini, but the end game is VV Monstro.
I feel like if I update to Gemini now and pay the $5K, later when I upgrade to Monstro (when and if the price for upgrade goes lower), I'd have to pay $5K more compared to Helium owner who upgrades to Monstro (since Helium is priced at $5K more).
So in the end, E-W to Gemini to Monstro will cost me $10K more than going E-W to DSMC2 Helium to Monstro. For me, I guess I'll skip Gemini for now.

We also have an E-W with the end goal of Monstro. How you explained it was my interpretation as well, however I reached out to Brent and he said "Once you are in to DSMC2 unified brain, does not make a difference. All good either way.". This was in response to moving Gemini compared to Helium with the end goal of Monstro.

I still don't know why it would not make a difference since DSMC Helium is 5K more but apparently it wont. I'd rather not move to Gemini and end up forking over more cash because I interpreted the process wrong.

 

[Josh Becker]

We also have an E-W with the end goal of Monstro. How you explained it was my interpretation as well, however I reached out to Brent and he said "Once you are in to DSMC2 unified brain, does not make a difference. All good either way.". This was in response to moving Gemini compared to Helium with the end goal of Monstro.

I still don't know why it would not make a difference since DSMC Helium is 5K more but apparently it wont. I'd rather not move to Gemini and end up forking over more cash because I interpreted the process wrong.

This was my impression, too. I think from their standpoint, once you have a DSMC2 unified brain, you have all the guts and internals to run any of their sensors. So at that point, you're merely comparing sensor prices: Gemini is $5k, Helium is $10k, and Monstro is $40k. You can jump from Gemini to Monstro for the sensor price.

I think one way RED could have made this a *little* more clear (not a lot, but a little) would be to have the store/purchase process be like this: DSMC2 Unified starts with a sensor-less Brain for $14.5K, next step add your sensor option for $5k Gemini/$10k Helium/$40k Monstro.
You end up at the same prices, but it more clearly illustrates to the end-user that the purchase of the "brain" is isolated from the purchase of their sensor.

 

[C. Burkhart]

I have never been a RED fan. However, I applaud them for making this move. I think it simplifies things in a coherent manner and will ultimately create more stability for the platform moving forward. I think Monstro is also the first camera I would seriously look at in place of an Alexa. The skin tones look much better than in the past, with greater nuance and the camera controls noise very nicely.

 

[Michael Wahba]

I have never been a RED fan. However, I applaud them for making this move. I think it simplifies things in a coherent manner and will ultimately create more stability for the platform moving forward. I think Monstro is also the first camera I would seriously look at in place of an Alexa. The skin tones look much better than in the past, with greater nuance and the camera controls noise very nicely.

Same can be said for Gemini.

 

[Charles Bergquist]

I’ve read all the points, the low to mid level cameras just got a huge financial opportunity to upgrade. The guys and girls that put their money into the highest end cameras just saw the value of their cameras cut in almost half. I don’t think anyone is looking to see their camera as a straight out investment, but a tool. I think what would calm the waters is some really cheap upgrade paths for Weapon Dragon CF 6K and Forged owners to Monstro for a limited time.

Having Monstro at the top of the food chain and expensive kept the rates up for owners, competitive with the Alexa LF at least. Large Format being higher tier, now at 55K down from 80K it just seems odd. Especially when Arri just raised all their prices.

It is what it is, but the new pricing doesn’t seem encouraging for higher end body owners.

 

[David J. Buchanan]

Same can be said for Gemini.

How would you know that considering how many tests are out there? I've barely seen anything aside for the two people who own the Gemini.

 

[Dominic Boudreault]

+1 Couldn't agree more with this.

I’ve read all the points, the low to mid level cameras just got a huge financial opportunity to upgrade. The guys and girls that put their money into the highest end cameras just saw the value of their cameras cut in almost half. I don’t think anyone is looking to see their camera as a straight out investment, but a tool. I think what would calm the waters is some really cheap upgrade paths for Weapon Dragon CF 6K and Forged owners to Monstro for a limited time.

Having Monstro at the top of the food chain and expensive kept the rates up for owners, competitive with the Alexa LF at least. Large Format being higher tier, now at 55K down from 80K it just seems odd. Especially when Arri just raised all their prices.

It is what it is, but the new pricing doesn’t seem encouraging for higher end body owners.

 

[D Fuller]

But, my point is that CF Weapon owners were here from the start.

Really? The start of what? Before there was CF Weapon there was Epic Dragon, and before that there was Epic-X, and before that there was Epic-M and before that Red One.

This is not a new story. Red’s upgrade policy is generous. It takes the sting out of their pricing changes, which are relentlessly aggressive. (As they should be for the company to be competitive.) When the upgrades to that CF of yours came around, an Epic-M Dragon, which cost $76K plus 10K formthe Dragon sensor, if I remember correctly, was worth the same as a Scarlet MX, which cost—well, a lot less. As you said, you made your ROI. Why the whining?

Being an early adopter has costs and benefits. When that game gets to be more than you can stomach, leave the table. Jarred has said clearly that he will take care of customers who ended up on the short side of this change. People (not necessarily You, Patrick) are throwing out fantasy world scenarios where nothing ever depreciates as if that might be a business plan for Red. It’s gotten more than a little silly.

 

[Charles Bergquist]

@ D Fuller , the Monstro hasn’t been out for 6 months and it dropped 35%. The flagship Large Format, mature version of Dragon VV, that’s out to compete with the Alexa LF and 65. I think everyone here takes into account depreciation on all their film equipment. However, that usually comes as something new comes around.

If you didn’t buy into high end Reds and have faith in the company, you’re in a great spot right now. If you did, you just took a bath. Just seems counter to Red’s previous stance, I think that’s the point that’s being made on these pages.

I do however like that there’s less confusion in the lineup for now and there’s no more “Weapon” name.

 

[Charles Bergquist]

Suggestion : June Only Weapon CF Woven / Forged - Upgrade $10k

 

[Michael Wahba]

How would you know that considering how many tests are out there? I've barely seen anything aside for the two people who own the Gemini.

Check Luigi’s thread on DR there’s some solid samples

 

[D Fuller]

@ D Fuller , the Monstro hasn’t been out for 6 months and it dropped 35%. The flagship Large Format, mature version of Dragon VV, that’s out to compete with the Alexa LF and 65. I think everyone here takes into account depreciation on all their film equipment. However, that usually comes as something new comes around.

If you didn’t buy into high end Reds and have faith in the company, you’re in a great spot right now. If you did, you just took a bath. Just seems counter to Red’s previous stance, I think that’s the point that’s being made on these pages.

I do however like that there’s less confusion in the lineup for now and there’s no more “Weapon” name.

If you did, you have the same camera you had before, which will take just as nice a picture as it did before. You only took a bath if you are trying to suddenly sell the camera. Feeling like your Cadillac just became a Chevy is not taking a bath.

I too like that there’s less confusion in the lineup, and the whole line seems much more rational now. It’s a good move.

And I do get why people are upset, it just seems like it’s time to take a step back, Chill, let Jarred decide what he’s going to do, and be a little realistic about what that’s likely to be. Meaning if you paid 50K for a camera, you’re not going to get 50K in trade-in value.

 

[Charles Bergquist]

@ D , the fact that the camera takes the same pictures is not what I’m discussing. Also, has nothing to do with trying to sell the camera. All I’m saying is that the upper tier owners saw negative benefit. The Monstro Upgrade also went up 10K for Dragon CF / Forged owners. Historically, Red has telegraphed their moves when it comes to upgrades / changes which has helped a lot for those that buy them.

Like I said, I waited a week to see where the dust settled. I don’t think anyone imagines their 50K camera is going to be 50K trade in and no where did I say that.

 

[Scot Yount]

Suggestion : June Only Weapon CF Woven / Forged - Upgrade $10k

This sounds good to me.

 

[D Fuller]

Like I said, I waited a week to see where the dust settled. I don’t think anyone imagines their 50K camera is going to be 50K trade in and no where did I say that.

I know you didn’t say that. Others have, though, and I’m afraid that forums being what they are you got swept up with a bunch of people who are really a bit over the top. Sorry.

 

[Andrew R Lewis]

Same can be said for Gemini.

Can it? I still haven't seen any clear evidence pointing to that. I've read DP's and shooters saying they prefer the image from Gemini over Helium, yet they have admittedly never shot Gemini. I even had a face to face conversation with a DP stating the same. Without testing, I think I'm just experiencing the hype machine. I'm a big Red fanboy, no doubt, I want it to be as good as people think it is. I'm planning a side by side with Helium to judge for myself ASAP.

Is there any unbiased Gemini vs Helium content out there? Not talk, actual images.