DSMC2. Unified.

[alexandre Chailan]

There were discussions about that for years. We never had any answer until now. European customers always paid a lot more for cameras and accessories. Seeing by how much Red decreased the EU price here just shows how wrong it was during all these years. Hard to swallow.

C'mon, you did money with your cam since all theses years.

It's a good move for European user, thanks Red.

 

[sam karr]

C'mon, you did money with your cam since all theses years.

It's a good move for European user, thanks Red.

Says one of the guys who asked for the exchange rate update. Then why didn’t you just accept the extra price and work a bit more to pay for it?

 

[Adam Brian Dada]

Aren't there bureaucratic mandates that force tech companies to have higher price points for the EU countries? Return periods, warranty demands, etc -- those aren't free.

 

[sam karr]

Aren't there bureaucratic mandates that force tech companies to have higher price points for the EU countries? Return periods, warranty demands, etc -- those aren't free.

With the update the EU price is 5% more than the exchange rate, which should represent these costs. In the past I paid a lot more than just 5%, it was more like 15-20%.

 

[alexandre Chailan]

Says one of the guys who asked for the exchange rate update. Then why didn’t you just accept the extra price and work a bit more to pay for it?

Because do you think Red will let the guys who paid yesterday there cam full rate exchange without doing something for them ? look what they do actually.

You talk about old price during severals years, the difference was not so big like the 1st rate they did for DSMC2. And like I said, we did money since all theses years.

I was looking for weapon 8k for end 2018, with this new rate I can afford Gemini + DSMC 2 8k, or choose one of the 2 cameras and go with a new set of lenses for the same rate, for me yes it's a pretty nice move from them, I don't know why peoples camplain like you did. They were absolutely not obliged to move on that way, the 1st european DSMC 2 price was really good, now it's better than we can expect for this kind of camera, be positive, look what you can afford now.

 

[Jon Dishler]

OK I just gotta say something. Red lowers the price of their cameras, gives the majority of their customers wonderful opportunities to upgrade, but the few that don't get something feel slighted and complain bitterly. Now this, Red has graciously updated their exchange rate for international customers, and now there are complaints about all the years that the exchange rate was not to their liking? You guys are a tough crowd to make happy. I could go on about my own experiences buying high technology equipment and watching it plummet in value, but I won't. Most companies really don't care about anything except profits in this quarter and next, no loyalty play at all. Red is really, really trying to build something much more than that, and I am sure every time someone complains about them trying to be more efficient and offer more for less, and the response is a complaint, it has to sting. Guys, they are bending over backwards to be as fair as possible. No one ever had to buy anything, at any price. Look at iPhones, every two years they are worth zero when the new model comes out.

 

[Thai Christen]

Buying RED top tier camera is like buying a brand new luxury car. As soon as you pick up your key and drive your new car out of the garage, it value depreciates by minimum 20-25%.
Look at Monstro, Weapon and compare to EpicW and Scarlet-W.

HOWEVER, buying RED camera is still a much better investment because you can make money. And if your business model is good you can recoup your investment within 2-3 years max.
Whereas buying a car, you just loose money.
Unless you invest in an Old Timer Car, like a Porsche 356, Mercedes SL Gullwing Coupe or similar. They gain in value over time.

 

[Jens Jakob Thorsen]

There were discussions about that for years. We never had any answer until now. European customers always paid a lot more for cameras and accessories. Seeing by how much Red decreased the EU price here just shows how wrong it was during all these years. Hard to swallow.

Yes. I for one asked my rep all most every time I ordered something big, because it puzzled me that there was this much difference. It amounts to a lot over the years.

 

[Tyler Clements]

I've seen a lot of comparisons between RED's price drop being compared to other electronics and I think that might be misplaced. True, EVERYTHING does devalue. That said, RED is not an iPhone...or are they?. When it comes to business equipment and even cameras - I'm looking for items where depreciation falls at around 10% per year after an initial 10% depreciation if buying new. So if I buy a $50,000 camera I'm hoping that it's worth at least $45,000 if sold after a single use - $40,000 the next year, $35,000 the next year, and so on. There is occasionally a sharper drop in value if it's replaced by new tech. But I expect that it should be worth half its value in maybe three to four years. So buying a camera shouldn't be like buying a phone where it devalues almost completely in two years...but this move by RED sort of puts their camera's in the same boat as an iPhone where we can expect enormous amounts of depreciation in just a couple years.

What we're seeing here with the RED Weapon and similarly with the Monstro is the camera immediately being devalued by half it's initial value. So if you payed $50,000 at the start of the year you've already lost over half the value in half a year. I can certainly see why users are upset. Business purchases are very calculated and these pricing changes have thrown a wrench in everyones calculations. It calls into question why these cameras were priced so high to begin with. How can a company slash a $50,000 camera in half almost on a whim without the cameras actually being replaced by new tech? Bleeding-edge tech shouldn't draw this much blood. If camera's drop in price this much they should be replaced by new tech and the DSMC2 system isn't exactly new tech - it's just sharing the old tech.

RED isn't like any other camera company - it's part of the reason we love them. Though that doesn't exclude them from being compared to other camera companies. So when weighing the options between a RED or an ARRI we need to look at how the cameras devalue over time and what the ROI is going to be after 2-4 years. Which company is going to be more predictable in it's pricing and model iterations? RED might have been better off just announcing the DSMC2 system with a small price drop. Owners would still be excited about the upgrade possibility the new unified platform, owners that recently bought wouldn't feel too slighted about their camera losing value, and at the end of the day RED has higher profit margins.

In summary, it's completely fair to be very upset about the pricing changes but at the end of the day if you want your equipment to hold it's value you might be better off investing in lenses....or cryptocurrency

 

[Anthony Berenato Jr]

Red lowers the price of their cameras, gives the majority of their customers wonderful opportunities to upgrade, but the few that don't get something feel slighted and complain bitterly.

Hey Jon, just have to politely disagree. I haven't been a RED User for the longest time. I bought my original Scarlet-X in February of 2014, and rode the upgrade wave since then. I'd say nearly all of us appreciate how generous the upgrade paths typically are, and it's always extremely exciting to be able to move into the next set of tools at a more affordable price. I've gotten years of incredible footage, and I'm still extremely happy to be a RED owner / user to this day - despite the circumstances.

Although, I think that's missing here is something that Jarred responded to in an earlier post (back when he mentioned they're working on something to give a little nudge back to Weapon Helium owners). As that user noted, it's that typically during these upgrade paths - those in the top tier got a preferred treatment towards upgrades. It was often noted by the team that the guys at the top are the guys who will benefit the most.

Some of us who moved to Weapon Dragon 6K Mg caught the short end of the stick when Epic-W was announced just a few months after our upgrades were happening (not after Mg 6K was announced - as most of us had to wait for our queue to pop 6 months later), and RED offered an awesome upgrade path to Weapon Helium. It's always a tough decision to spend more money to correct a very unusual product line issue (Mg replaced in the product line within months of the upgrade queue moving forward) - but I thought it was worth it, along with a lot of other users. Helium was a badass sensor, and I figured the extra money was worth it to be in the "top tier" - as I've watched all those users get discounts on upgrades to date. I was excited to finally be there, and to hopefully feel the perks when the time came for a new sensor or DSMC3.

This was a little unexpected, because we made it to a moment where upgrades are happening for older DSMC1 Dragon users and those with cameras in lower tiers - meanwhile our only viable (and expensive) upgrade path has increased in price (kind of to the the point where it's a little too close to buying a Monstero VV new), our once top tier cameras have decreased in price, and we really just feel kind of confused as to where we go from here and kind of burned on the upset of preferred treatment.

I'm very happy that new users get to move to Weapon internals. I'm also very happy that older users get to move to a cool sensor, Gemini. And you're right - nobody really told us to make this decision, we all made it on our own. It's just kind of what we were sold on that feels a little dismantled. This was probably a very hard decision for RED to make, and yes - it will pave the way for a less expensive end-user cost in the future.... but a lot of us were caught up in that switch.

It's not about luxury cars losing value after you turn the key. It's that feeling when you buy a luxury car, and under a year later (months for some of us) it's priced so everyone can own one, and that luxury (rental rates, rarity, extra performance, branding) goes away. Meanwhile you were expecting to still be head of the pack, and you're kind of back with the new guys.

I'm sorry if that comes off as an ego thing, it's not meant to. A lot of us just feel really weird, and I'm not really interested in complaining about it - because as I've mentioned previously... I've had a lot of amazing opportunities come about due to owning my RED camera over the years. We're all just kind of lost, running around with our brains on the ground, and letting the steam out.

I have faith that Jarred and Brent will come up with something worth it, even if it's not best-case-scenerio for us. I don't think it could be, considering the new shift in manufacturing and need for large quantities to bring the price down. I still have a little burning gut feeling that this is going to be another "pay more to get back to the top" thing, where I wasn't really ready to spend that sort of money at this time (for instance, if I need to jump on Monstero within RED's current sensor stock - that could deplete rather quickly). I really want to put money down on a house and maybe stop treating my camera like it's my girlfriend, haha.

But we'll see - I'm excited to see what they come up with. Anything from RedArmor-W and community Gemini sensors to swap with, to maybe a group pool on Monstero upgrades to lower cost (like they did when they first announced VV - but if you guys do this... please give us all at least a 3-month window before execution), or just a general killer deal on DSMC3 upgrades in the future would be nothing sort of amazing. It's just kind of restoring faith, because I'm still happy - but I want to know I'm still spending my money well. As for the EU exchange - I hope some of the naysayers change their tune. RED really is pulling for them, but nothing is free.

 

[Tyler Clements]

It's not about luxury cars losing value after you turn the key. It's that feeling when you buy a luxury car, and under a year later (months for some of us) it's priced so everyone can own one, and that luxury (rental rates, rarity, extra performance, branding) goes away. Meanwhile you were expecting to still be head of the pack, and you're kind of back with the new guys.

This hits the nail on the head. Not only is it priced that everyone can own one but for the amount you paid they can buy an additional Movi Pro, an Aerial Platform, and a set of Sigma Cine Primes.

 

[Adam Brian Dada]

This hits the nail on the head. Not only is it priced that everyone can own one but for the amount you paid they can buy an additional Movi Pro, an Aerial Platform, and a set of Sigma Cine Primes.

That camera rents out for thousands of dollars a week which means that people who pay to rent it are making multiples of thousands of dollars a week in income or production value.

If you can't pay off a camera entirely in 24 months with a significant profit margin for your risk and time, the camera was a poor choice for you. Most of the people I know who bought RED cameras at any price point in the past 5 years made a profit very quickly because they already had their customers lined up, had a reputation that sold itself, and didn't worry if the technology was replaced with something much cheaper in just 2 years.

2 years from now we might see mobile sensors that can capture light better than cinema rigs did just 5 years ago. It's not far fetched to consider it.

If you buy into the top 20% of an industry, you have to be ready to sell yourself to the customers who want to create using that tech -- because it will depreciate fast as technology advances.

If you didn't have the clients to back it, you could have rented the gear until you had steady work coming in to afford to buy it.

 

[Med D]

Jarred,

Just a quick question regarding the new partners and supply chain.

Will this have any impact on the "Country of Origin" designation "Made in USA"?

Thanks

I'm interested in the answer to this one as well.

 

[Jarred Land]

RED isn't like any other camera company - it's part of the reason we love them. Though that doesn't exclude them from being compared to other camera companies.

We accept that.. but a point many are forgetting that many have brought up is many are making an inaccurate comparison and only using one half the argument. " RED lowered pricing and Sony, Canon and ARRI would never do this to us! Damn you RED! "

When the reality is Arri has done this. They have dropped camera prices buy 40% overnight. Canon dropped their C300 in half. TWICE. Sony has done the same. Let's not forget the F23/F35 debacle.

There is such a big difference though. We actually give a shit. And unlike the above examples, we didn't lower prices because we have a new shiny toy. We lowered prices because I woke up one day and realized our cameras were more expensive than they should be. It strayed from the foundation of why we started this company.

We buckled down and made it work. We shrunk our team and unified our product and joined our camera business with one of the best supply chain companies in the world to help make things cheaper.

Sure.. we could of just shut the fuck up and increased our margins and quietly laughed all the way to the bank like everyone else does... but we didn't. We passed that on to our customers. Because that's why we are here. It's not about the money. And that's the irony, because that's why people are upset.

We have done this many times before. Every single one of you has taken advantage of our dedication to making the best cameras as affordable as possible so the most amount of people no matter how rich they are can have the best tools to make their art without compromise. Even those that bought cameras a week ago paid less than they would of. Because that's how it works. And even if you are not a RED customer... I think it's safe to say we made the rest of the industry change to your benefit.

Its also why we are dealing with you all one by one. Because we don't need to do anything. We really don't. Some of you get it , some of you don't. And we will reward the level of compassion accordingly.

 

[Bob Gundu]

"And we will reward the level of compassion accordingly"

Booya!

 

[rand thompson]

Shit just got real around here!!!

 

[Michael Wahba]

Amen!!!!

 

[Johnny Hurberg]

I scrambled and dreamt for ten years about shooting with these cameras and finally found a window to make it work, hopefully that is.

Me and my wife really pushing the budget to make this work, and by making this work, wich isn´t gonna be about fame and tons of money since thats not even the goal but all about sharing and telling a story about a subject we both love and want people to see and share. I get that a lot of people make a living out of this but its so easy to get caught up in the money, money......money thing. And that thinking more than often leads to thinking that everyone have the intention about screwing you over.

I got my camera and like someone mentioned earlier it still works and I can still pull beautiful pictures out of it when I get everything right (wich is kind of the challenge, thrill and fun of it all)

Our project is gonna be a long road, but its gonna be one hell of a ride!

Thanks RED for making these tools and investing time, energy and tons of other things to make life for people that wants to share a story more fun!

 

[Steve DiMaggio]

"And we will reward the level of compassion accordingly"

Booya!

exactly!

steve

 

[DC Chavez]

Sure.. we could of just shut the fuck up and increased our margins and quietly laughed all the way to the bank like everyone else does... but we didn't. We passed that on to our customers.

Preach...