DSMC2. Unified.

[Josh Becker]

Incorrect- Epic Dragon @ 4K HD was a 1.96x magnification.

Like others said, the 8K Helium is still the S35-sized 8K Helium sensor, so all your cropping is identical to Epic-W. Only change is the "guts" to give the camera higher frame rates and data rate. If you're struggling with crop factor, the Gemini is the way to go, giving you 96fps at 5K full frame, only a slight crop to get to 4K.

 

[BrendanLeahy]

Is it possbile to upgrade Weapon MG to the unified body AND keep the original Dragon Sensor? What would be the cost (without buying the Gemini/Helium/Monstro sensor)?

Thanks

Pat

+1 on this. I'd love to retain the Dragon sensor as well

PS 2: Ok so should I reevaluate my insurance policy for Weapon MG to (19'500 - 6'950) = 12'550 instead of 29'500?

For my insurance, at least, they said value it at what the camera replacement equivalent would be since MG is no longer on the market. That, originally for me (price-wise), was Epic-W.

 

[Matt Beardsley]

As a Scarlet-W / Raven shooter, I've only ever needed gray mini mags... but with a Gemini on order, red mini mags open up some higher frame rate and compression options, correct? How does "up to 300 MB/s" for red mags vs "up to 225 MB/s" for gray mags translate to Gemini frame rate and compression options?

 

[Shaeden Gallegos]

As a Scarlet-W / Raven shooter, I've only ever needed gray mini mags... but with a Gemini on order, red mini mags open up some higher frame rate and compression options, correct? How does "up to 300 MB/s" for red mags vs "up to 225 MB/s" for gray mags translate to Gemini frame rate and compression options?

You can use the RED Tools Web App: http://www.red.com/tools/recording-time

Basically you get lower compression settings, resulting in less compressed footage (higher data rates).

 

[Thai Christen]

I'm one of those with a Monstro for sale or trade, and while this new pricing has taken away potential buyers for my Monstro, I'm not in panic mode. Reason is the Monstro sensor is going to be a $40,000 upgrade when they have the current sensor stock drawn down.

RED has just so many ovens for baking sensors and I think a lot of that capacity was allocated to Monstro. But with the coming camera modules for Hydrogen, I think many of those Monstro sensor ovens will be dedicated to Hydrogen module sensors. When that happens, the Monstro will almost become a specialty order sensor and because the numbers made will be fewer, the price will be higher.

Depending on how I gauge the market, I will likely gradually raise the price of my CF Monstro when current stock is sold. Fortunately, it's paid for and I don't have to sell it... and the more Monstro is used for content, the more desirable it will become.

So while current Monstro owners are undermined by RED at the moment, I feel like it will all shake out in the future. At least that is my take on it.

The only direction price is moving in electronic goods is DOWN, not up.

Or maybe RED could release a limited Monstro Collector Edition with Jim/Jarred signature engraved on the body, à la Leica. Maybe then the value would hold lomger. Otherwise, no way price will go up again. But who knows.

PS: I wouldn‘t put everything on one horse like Hydrogen. It is too early for speculations. My two cents.

 

[Matt Beardsley]

As a Scarlet-W / Raven shooter, I've only ever needed gray mini mags... but with a Gemini on order, red mini mags open up some higher frame rate and compression options, correct? How does "up to 300 MB/s" for red mags vs "up to 225 MB/s" for gray mags translate to Gemini frame rate and compression options?

You can use the RED Tools Web App: http://www.red.com/tools/recording-time

Basically you get lower compression settings, resulting in less compressed footage (higher data rates).

Ah cool, that tool is super useful. Looks to me like Gemini is most definitely capable of pushing past the gray mini mag's 225 MB/s limit. 4K 16x9 120 fps can hit 251 MB/s (6:1 compression), 5K 2:1 ratio 120 fps 9:1 compression: 265 MB/s . (and 5K 120 fps R3D!! wha??). Looks like it's time to pop for a red mini mag or two!

In 24p, you'd have to go all the way up to 2:1 compression to need the red mags – 2:1, in case you just happen to have too many RAID boxes laying around or get paid per TB, ha ha.

 

[Shaeden Gallegos]

Ah cool, that tool is super useful. Looks to me like Gemini is most definitely capable of pushing past the gray mini mag's 225 MB/s limit. 4K 16x9 120 fps can hit 251 MB/s (6:1 compression), 5K 2:1 ratio 120 fps 9:1 compression: 265 MB/s . (and 5K 120 fps R3D!! wha??). Looks like it's time to pop for a red mini mag or two!

In 24p, you'd have to go all the way up to 2:1 compression to need the red mags – 2:1, in case you just happen to have too many RAID boxes laying around or get paid per TB, ha ha.

Hahaha awesome! It is really worth it, and 2:1 for an R3D is mathmatically loseless (so super clean imagery).

 

[Matt Hipsley]

A lot of negativity in this thread.
No other camera manufacturer gives you an option of trading in.
Imagine what the RED second-hand market would look like if RED did not offer trade-ins. There would be a lot more cameras on the market, which would likely drive used prices way down.

If you purchased a camera at a higher price than what it is today, yes it is a bit of a bummer, however just remember that you were (likely) happy to pay the price you paid.
Surely you cannot expect to recover the full cost of your camera at trade-in. Same as buying a new car. It looses value the second you leave the dealership.

Jarred and team, great work on the simplified line-up.
I hope to jump to a Gemini from Scarlet-W soon.

 

[David J. Buchanan]

The only direction price is moving in electronic goods is DOWN, not up.

Or maybe RED could release a limited Monstro Collector Edition with Jim/Jarred signature engraved on the body, à la Leica. Maybe then the value would hold lomger. Otherwise, no way price will go up again. But who knows.

PS: I wouldn‘t put everything on one horse like Hydrogen. It is too early for speculations. My two cents.

This is not always true. The Scarlet-W and Raven went up in price. As well as the Sony FS7... Companies can do whatever they want (as displayed by this new direction).

The only thing that's hard to determine is what they actually mean when they talk about the price of the Monstro... I dunno if $55K is what it's gonna be forever, or if it'll go up once the stock is all gone. I don't know and you don't know.

 

[D Fuller]

Can someone from RED let us know what the new crop factor will be for the DSMC2 Helium when shooting 4K HD @120 fps?

I am hoping this will bring down the crop factor from 2.69x on the Epic-W and more like the 1.96x of the Weapon.

Fingers crossed, and if so, I will upgrade tomorrow.

The crop factor has nothing to do with the frame rate, the crop factor is determined by the resolution you are shooting. So if you shoot 4K HD on helium it will be the same crop factor regardless of the frame rate.

But--the weapon internals will give you faster frae rates at every resolution.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Funny you should mention that...I got Jim to sign my scarlet MX years ago...plate wont fit the new body though lol

The only direction price is moving in electronic goods is DOWN, not up.

Or maybe RED could release a limited Monstro Collector Edition with Jim/Jarred signature engraved on the body, à la Leica. Maybe then the value would hold lomger. Otherwise, no way price will go up again. But who knows.

PS: I wouldn‘t put everything on one horse like Hydrogen. It is too early for speculations. My two cents.

 

[emil_h]

Not to be a pedant but the Weapon body contained the Dragon, Dragon VV, Helium, and Monstro sensors at various points in time. :tongue_smilie:

Exactly my point.

 

[D Fuller]

This isn't whining and complaining. This is a Devaluation of a product that was held at a high esteem and monetary value. The market didn't decide this price drop. The company did. I personally, am benefiting from this whole thing, but I don't think this was a smart move. Lets be honest. I'm a fan boy, but this is weird. " but they are putting tools in the hands of artists" don't give me that junk. This is a company that has to make money at the end of the day who didn't get a lot of exponential praise from the hydrogen one reveal. Who know's how much $$ was poured into that project.

paying $5k for something that you know costs less is hurting my brain. It's not complaining its dumb. IMO RED must REALLY, and I mean REALLY need that $5k. No one is valuing newly bought equipment a year later as new. I'm talking about a company who DEVALUES their own product. by 50%. That is crazy. everyone is totally getting mind screwed here. You think you're buying a $50,000 Weapon camera for only $5k more if you are a epic-w owner. Truth is you are buying a $24,500 camera for $35,000. I"m sorry, but in the MARKET that RED was in and the BRAND they established as being so HIGH value. They dropped the price of one of their flag ship models by 50%???? are you kidding me? How is nobody seeing this.

Sorry Rich, but this argument just doesn't make sense. They can afford to cut the price on one hand, but must really need the $5K upgrade fee on the other? Your argument is self-contradicting.

Red will make money at the end of the day because their business just got a lot more efficient. And, because demand is elastic. (Economics 101) The lower-priced cameras are gonna sell like hotcakes.

 

[emil_h]

I'm one of those with a Monstro for sale or trade, and while this new pricing has taken away potential buyers for my Monstro, I'm not in panic mode. Reason is the Monstro sensor is going to be a $40,000 upgrade when they have the current sensor stock drawn down.

RED has just so many ovens for baking sensors and I think a lot of that capacity was allocated to Monstro. But with the coming camera modules for Hydrogen, I think many of those Monstro sensor ovens will be dedicated to Hydrogen module sensors. When that happens, the Monstro will almost become a specialty order sensor and because the numbers made will be fewer, the price will be higher.

Depending on how I gauge the market, I will likely gradually raise the price of my CF Monstro when current stock is sold. Fortunately, it's paid for and I don't have to sell it... and the more Monstro is used for content, the more desirable it will become.

So while current Monstro owners are undermined by RED at the moment, I feel like it will all shake out in the future. At least that is my take on it.

I'd be shocked if at any point RED uses the same manufacturing facilities that pump out their camera sensors to start making Hydrogen ones.

 

[D Fuller]

Incorrect- Epic Dragon @ 4K HD was a 1.96x magnification.

You're confusing resolution with sensor size. Helium has smaller photo sites than dragon, so it is a smaller sensor at any chosen resolution than Dragon. Shooting 4K HD on helium will always give you the same crop factor. (and has always done so) If you want to shoot 4K HD with less of a crop factor, go to Gemini. It's a bigger sensor.

Look at this chart and it might help: http://phfx.com/tools/redThing_DSMC2SensorTechAndFilm/phfx_REDDSMC2_SensorTechAndFilm.jpg

 

[ryanpostas]

The only direction price is moving in electronic goods is DOWN, not up.

Or maybe RED could release a limited Monstro Collector Edition with Jim/Jarred signature engraved on the body, à la Leica. Maybe then the value would hold lomger. Otherwise, no way price will go up again. But who knows.

PS: I wouldn‘t put everything on one horse like Hydrogen. It is too early for speculations. My two cents.

Incorrect. The Alexa Mini price just went up May 1st. 3 years AFTER it's original release.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I'd be shocked if at any point RED uses the same manufacturing facilities that pump out their camera sensors to start making Hydrogen ones.

According to several reports, a large portion of the camera manufacturing will be made by Foxconn in Shenzhen:

https://techcrunch.com/2018/02/12/f...h-red-to-make-cheaper-and-smaller-8k-cameras/

https://www.theverge.com/circuitbre...6/red-foxconn-potential-8k-camera-partnership

https://petapixel.com/2018/02/17/red-foxconn-team-make-8k-cameras-1-3-price/

https://www.thebroadcastbridge.com/...any-will-partner-with-red-to-make-low-cost-8k

It's a good question as to where the sensor is made. I think it's fair to guess that Foxconn won't be making everything, but I suspect they'll be doing a substantial amount of the work. A lot will depend on the quantities being made, and I don't think that the Red Cameras are what I would call "mass-market" products made in the hundreds of thousands.

But it's not a simple answer. Even Apple's iPhone's parts are said to be made in dozens of different countries and then assembled at Foxconn:

https://www.lifewire.com/where-is-the-iphone-made-1999503

 

[Brendan H. Banks]

But--the weapon internals will give you faster frae rates at every resolution.

This is actually incorrect -- the new DSMC2 internals (some are calling them Weapon internals) help get you roughly doubled framerates at 7k & 8k when compared with Epic-W Helium, but for everything below 7k the Epic-W Helium and DSMC2 Helium are identical in framerates. I believe you can achieve lower compression but the sensor will not refresh any faster at those lower resolutions.

 

[D Fuller]

This is actually incorrect -- the new DSMC2 internals (some are calling them Weapon internals) help get you roughly doubled framerates at 7k & 8k when compared with Epic-W Helium, but for everything below 7k the Epic-W Helium and DSMC2 Helium are identical in framerates. I believe you can achieve lower compression but the sensor will not refresh any faster at those lower resolutions.

Yup. You're right about that. My mistake.

 

[Brent Carter]

Waiting for traffics to die down from Hollywood to Irvine, getting caught up here.

I love S-W monochrome, and would like to keep that camera as a Monochrome after upgrade

Brent,
I know you are super swamped with communication on all channels.
I pray that you get a window to catch your breath soon.
And only after you have had some time to relax, could you please clarify upgrade option for S-W Monochrome

Are you saying you want to get another monochrome but keep your SCARLET-W monochrome? We can probably work out some loyalty discount there. PM me.

Is it possbile to upgrade Weapon MG to the unified body AND keep the original Dragon Sensor? What would be the cost (without buying the Gemini/Helium/Monstro sensor)?

Thanks

Pat

PS: I love Dragon's 6k at S35mm, and if you do a S35 Monstro I'll upgrade it immediatly) ;-)
PS 2: Ok so should I reevaluate my insurance policy for Weapon MG to (19'500 - 6'950) = 12'550 instead of 29'500?

Well, remember, math does not make sense here. We are telling EPIC-W HELIUM folks to update board sets to DSMC2 HELIUM, it is $4950. I guess this would be the same thing for a WEAPON Mg. You were basically getting GEMINI for another $2000.

If you want to do this, shoot me a PM. Since I doubt there are many of you going down this path, won’t be a formal path on RED.com.

Brent, just to clarify, with the current simplification, is sensor swap (GEMINI < > HELIUM < > MONSTRO) a standard part of RED offerings now, or is still going to be time framed as usual?

No time frame on swapping, that I know of.

Funny you should mention that...I got Jim to sign my scarlet MX years ago...plate wont fit the new body though lol

You’re welcome : )