Dsmc2 audio modules?

[Rakesh Malik]

Yeah the 6 really isn't much bigger than the 3 just slightly wider. The only thing that would make the MixPre 6 better is if there was a MixPre 6T variant with the same built in time code generator that the 10 has. Would also be really cool if DSMC2 could send TC and record trigger out via HDMI.

I haven't tried the HDMI output from my Red to my MixPre-6, but it's been great for audio.

On set we use TentacleSyncs to provide timecode; they're inexpensive enough, and very reliable. I'll one of these days try using HDMI to my MixPre-6 to see if that workds, but the MixPre-6 sounds as goood as you'd expect a Sound Devices recorder to sound.

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

Rakesh, did you mean the recorded audio on the sd card sounded good as aspected from sound devices, or the audio yourecord onboard camera?

Looking forward to here if you can start stop the recorder using the hdmi from the camera.

I haven't tried the HDMI output from my Red to my MixPre-6, but it's been great for audio.

On set we use TentacleSyncs to provide timecode; they're inexpensive enough, and very reliable. I'll one of these days try using HDMI to my MixPre-6 to see if that workds, but the MixPre-6 sounds as goood as you'd expect a Sound Devices recorder to sound.

 

[Rakesh Malik]

Rakesh, did you mean the recorded audio on the sd card sounded good as aspected from sound devices, or the audio yourecord onboard camera?

The on-camera sound has been... bad. Even using a Sound Devices preamp, the levels are hard to get right (I don't have an OMOD XLR). I've been using dual system, audio on the Sound Devices.

Looking forward to here if you can start stop the recorder using the hdmi from the camera.

I wish I'd thought of trying it out sooner. I just need to hunt down an HDMI to micro HDMI cable now.

 

[andrewhake]

The on-camera sound has been... bad. Even using a Sound Devices preamp, the levels are hard to get right (I don't have an OMOD XLR). I've been using dual system, audio on the Sound
Devices.

I wish I'd thought of trying it out sooner. I just need to hunt down an HDMI to micro HDMI cable now.

Yeah I tested HDMI with my DSCM2 Gemini and MixPre 6 and unfortunately no timecode or record trigger output over HDMI from DSMC2. I do wonder if this could be done in a firmware update? Is there a proper way to put in a request like this?

Would also be really cool if there was a small and simple p-tap to USB-C cable to power the Mix Pre also. You can actually power the MixPre from the USB port of the V-Lock IO expander, but it will put the recorder in a low power mode so you only get 2 phantom power channels. Which for an on camera setup is generally fine actually. Just need a USB-A to USB-C cable.

If Red WERE to make a new audio module it would be great if they added a USB-C 7.5w port to power and charge devices. I always power my MixPre 6 with USB-C battery packs when I am only doing sound.

 

[andrewhake]

I haven't tried the HDMI output from my Red to my MixPre-6, but it's been great for audio.

On set we use TentacleSyncs to provide timecode; they're inexpensive enough, and very reliable. I'll one of these days try using HDMI to my MixPre-6 to see if that workds, but the MixPre-6 sounds as goood as you'd expect a Sound Devices recorder to sound.

Yeah tentacle syncs work great, but if MixPre 6 had built in TC generator, only one would be needed.

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

If the hdmi record /stop had worked from dmsc2, how would the post workflow looked? Im not sure how easy you could swap out the audio files from the onboard camera to sound devices files. Since soundevices will have their own naming convetion i guess there might still be some manual work to swap out audiofiles.

Plural eyes is good but Im doing so much shooting that even plural eyes syncing would get to tideous. I dont have the time to post sync, but perhaps using time code in wosrt case scenario. The dream is to just record audio and images straight to camera and have everything contained in one file.

 

[D Fuller]

If the hdmi record /stop had worked from dmsc2, how would the post workflow looked? Im not sure how easy you could swap out the audio files from the onboard camera to sound devices files. Since soundevices will have their own naming convetion i guess there might still be some manual work to swap out audiofiles.

Plural eyes is good but Im doing so much shooting that even plural eyes syncing would get to tideous. I dont have the time to post sync, but perhaps using time code in wosrt case scenario. The dream is to just record audio and images straight to camera and have everything contained in one file.

Time code sync in either RedcineX or Resolve is very easy and very quick. (It’s so fast that the first time I did it, I thought nothing had happened.) With both, you can sync a whole folder of stuff in one click. Naming doesn’t come in to it; only timecode matters. It’s completely automatic, and as long as you’ve got good timecode sync, it’s dead on. (If you don’t have perfect sync, you can set an offset.) honestly, a good TC sync workflow makes plural eyes and the like look like the slow lane.

I believe the process is similarly quick in Avid, but more tedious in Premiere (one clip at a time) but I’m not that proficient at Premiere, and it’s been a while since I’ve owned Avid, so others can speak to those.

There are a few parameters to learn on setup—things like whether you want the recorder tracks to replace the tracks the camera recorded or add them to the file, so it takes a few minutes to learn. But then, most anything different takes a few minutes (at least) to learn.

 

[andrewhake]

If the hdmi record /stop had worked from dmsc2, how would the post workflow looked? Im not sure how easy you could swap out the audio files from the onboard camera to sound devices files. Since soundevices will have their own naming convetion i guess there might still be some manual work to swap out audiofiles.

Plural eyes is good but Im doing so much shooting that even plural eyes syncing would get to tideous. I dont have the time to post sync, but perhaps using time code in wosrt case scenario. The dream is to just record audio and images straight to camera and have everything contained in one file.

If you want everything in one file out of the camera you can output audio from your recorder direct to camera while still recording to your external recorder. But definitely worth testing to see how much of a quality loss you are getting just connecting mic direct to camera if you are really concerned about simplifying workflow.

 

[Rakesh Malik]

Yeah I tested HDMI with my DSCM2 Gemini and MixPre 6 and unfortunately no timecode or record trigger output over HDMI from DSMC2. I do wonder if this could be done in a firmware update? Is there a proper way to put in a request like this?

That's a bummer, but a minor one. It would still be nice to have timecode over HDMI enabled.

If Red WERE to make a new audio module it would be great if they added a USB-C 7.5w port to power and charge devices. I always power my MixPre 6 with USB-C battery packs when I am only doing sound.

I've not had any luck getting my MixPre-6 to run with just the USB-C cable from my power bank connected. I'm not sure why, but I ended up getting one of the Sony style battery adatpers and some of those batteries anyway, so I haven't really tried to figure out why my power bank won't power the mixer.

 

[Rakesh Malik]

I believe the process is similarly quick in Avid, but more tedious in Premiere (one clip at a time) but I’m not that proficient at Premiere, and it’s been a while since I’ve owned Avid, so others can speak to those.

I don't think that Adobe has figured this one out yet. If you use the "sync by timecode and append tracks" option in Resolve, the workflow becomes insanely simple.

I haven't done this in Avid, but I've been told that it handles timecode syncing very nicely.

 

[andrewhake]

That's a bummer, but a minor one. It would still be nice to have timecode over HDMI enabled.



I've not had any luck getting my MixPre-6 to run with just the USB-C cable from my power bank connected. I'm not sure why, but I ended up getting one of the Sony style battery adatpers and some of those batteries anyway, so I haven't really tried to figure out why my power bank won't power the mixer.

Probably the USB-C cable being used. I haven't had any issues powering the MixPre-6 using the Anker PowerBank that Sound Devices recommends: https://www.amazon.com/Anker-PowerC...pID=41qlHXLjzSL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

And using a USB-A to USB-C cable that was included with a recent G-Tech portable SSD I have been able to use it on low power mode from the camera. The MixPre will let you know it is in low power mode on the screen.

 

[David Peterson]

In many cases I will even setup sound recorder and and mics in a different location from my camera, so being able to keep them in sync without extra gear attached would be great.

Then wouldn't that make the Zoom F series a better choice for this specific point? As the MixPre series (except the 10T) all need an external TC box as they lack the internal TC generator the Zoom F series has.

the Zoom stuff have digital limiters. The Sound Devices MixPre stuff analog.....That difference alone is what made me go Sound Devices....

There is a lot of misunderstanding of using limiters. And even more misunderstanding of how Zoom's F series hybrid limiters work. (even Curtis Judd got it wrong!)

As someone who has been using the Zoom F4 (and now the F8n) for years on many many many shoots and a wide range of diverse projects every week I can say their limiters were never a dealbreaker for me. And with all of what I'd have to give up if I downgraded to an equivalent priced MixPre recorder that would have been silly for me to have done instead.

Yeah wireless receiver would be amazing as well. Why a slot for wireless receiver though? Just build it right in. I would imagine that could add a bit to the cost though.

I was meaning for a UniSlot Receiver, as otherwise you'd get locked into only one brand's wireless system.

And yes timecode generator with output would allow the main camera to be the master for everything else. Maybe even have a dedicated battery for it so there is less chance for drift.

Sync additional cameras and have dedicated sound recordists sync their recorders without the need for a bunch of external TC boxes. Even better if this (and record trigger) can just be done wirelessly. If I could wirelessly transmit sync TC from my camera to recorders I would be extremely happy. I love things like tentacle sync and UltraSync with it's dedicated TC network, but it just seems odd that this sort of thing is still necessary and not just built right into these devices. It's not even necessarily the need to be able to continuously transmit TC to a recorder, just being able to wirelessly jam sync the devices would be great. I am probably just being naive but as someone coming from another part of the industry, it seems like it would make a lot of sense for every pro camera and sound recorder to have reliable built in timecode generators that can simply be synced when beginning shooting and reliably stay in sync throughout the day. Or the ability to connect to a standardized timecode/ctrl network.

Given that camera manufacturers have almost universally been downright appalling when it comes to implementing accurate timecode, I wouldn't hold your breath over any of these. Not even Arri (who do it the least worst of anyone!) still haven't managed to always implement TC flawlessly on their cameras. (for instance the TC lag you see on their displays is very frustrating/disconcerting. And the AMIRA for ages had TC issues in not holding it even from an external source)

 

[David Peterson]

Yeah I tested HDMI with my DSCM2 Gemini and MixPre 6 and unfortunately no timecode or record trigger output over HDMI from DSMC2. I do wonder if this could be done in a firmware update? Is there a proper way to put in a request like this?

Depends on who is screwing it up (RED? Or Sound Devices?) in terms of sending/receiving a proper HDMI trigger signal, as to who you should put in the request to. (or maybe both of them)

https://support.red.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360002981368-HDMI-Timecode-and-record-flag

It seems RED is already considering this? But not a bad idea to further pester them perhaps.... ;-)

Hi to pro's that deal with sound,
Can we use the A10 Digital Wireless Microphone System from Audio Limited with the transmitter attached to a shotgun mic as a boom and the receiver directly feeding the RED. This is just to get a better quality of sound into the Camera because in Chennai, India, we use the sound only as a scratch and later dub the dialogues in a studio. This is only for the feature film work with minimum crew.

I highly recommend just doing it right from the start, and getting quality sound on the day. As anything with the budget to shoot a feature film with a RED should have the budget for a sound department as well.

If the hdmi record /stop had worked from dmsc2, how would the post workflow looked? Im not sure how easy you could swap out the audio files from the onboard camera to sound devices files. Since soundevices will have their own naming convetion i guess there might still be some manual work to swap out audiofiles.

Plural eyes is good but Im doing so much shooting that even plural eyes syncing would get to tideous. I dont have the time to post sync, but perhaps using time code in wosrt case scenario. The dream is to just record audio and images straight to camera and have everything contained in one file.

The naming of files is almost irrelevant, as timecode is meant to be sent over HDMI as well, which is what the Sound Devices MixPre series (also the Tascam DR701D has the same party tricky) would use to time stamp their files with the right TC. Then in post it is almost nearly instantaneous to sync up all media files with TC (waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay faster than PluralEyes! Much much more so).

 

[Rakesh Malik]

Probably the USB-C cable being used. I haven't had any issues powering the MixPre-6 using the Anker PowerBank that Sound Devices recommends: https://www.amazon.com/Anker-PowerC...pID=41qlHXLjzSL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

And using a USB-A to USB-C cable that was included with a recent G-Tech portable SSD I have been able to use it on low power mode from the camera. The MixPre will let you know it is in low power mode on the screen.

I'm wondering if it's my power bank. I'll try some other cables as well.

Thanks

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

David, what would you recommend, if the criteria would be to record to really good audio straight in to the camera for smoothest workflow? To have quality audio baked into the r3d files for easy playback and reviwing.

(Seams every choice I make there is some one here with bad experiences. No really "bullet pro solution for onboard camera audio.)


Wich red module, and wich external audio preamp/recorder, cables, time code boxes?
I don't see it as a problem but instead bonus to have the audio recorded on the recorder for backup (If the differens is large enough I would of course use this on some project.)


One example could perhaps be.
DSMC2 V-LOCK I/O EXPANDER (to use for mic in port, Im guessing you should monitor headphones from the mixpre.)
Sound devices mixpre6 (for preamp and backup recoding) Its really good you can fit the mixpre under the camera.
ultrasonic one (to spawn the time code)
cables (I have not looked in to wich cables to use yet).

I dont have a budget to go higher than the above components for this audio rig. Since the hdmi triggering won't work with red, I guess the audio recording would be very long, or I would have to start stop recording manually, wich is a bummer, and can kill the above solution as I really like to only hit record once. Its to easy to forget to roll the audio otherwise.

Also what mic do you recommend for inside work. My current mics are (not so fancy mics but I like to improve on those =) )
octava mk12
rode ntg 2
pin mic lavaliars
Sennheiser AVX-ME2. (I enjoy the easy of use, but they drop out signal little to easy sometimes.)
(and mics for voice over such as Neumann TLM 103..)

But im considering the Sennheiser 416, or the new diety v2 for studio work and sit down interviews.

 

[Rakesh Malik]

Depends on who is screwing it up (RED? Or Sound Devices?) in terms of sending/receiving a proper HDMI trigger signal, as to who you should put in the request to. (or maybe both of them)

Since the Sound Devices can trigger recording over HDMI with other recorders, it's probably Red in this case.

I highly recommend just doing it right from the start, and getting quality sound on the day. As anything with the budget to shoot a feature film with a RED should have the budget for a sound department as well.

It seems like it ought to cost less to get it right the first time, rather than call the cast back + rent a sound booth for dubbing.

The naming of files is almost irrelevant, as timecode is meant to be sent over HDMI as well, which is what the Sound Devices MixPre series (also the Tascam DR701D has the same party tricky) would use to time stamp their files with the right TC. Then in post it is almost nearly instantaneous to sync up all media files with TC (waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay faster than PluralEyes! Much much more so).

The timecode sync workflow is a lot nicer also, since once you've saved yourself the time by timecode syncing, you also can then just plop the clips into your timeline and trim with production audio automagically included, even if you're rendering intermediates for offline editing.

 

[Rakesh Malik]

But im considering the Sennheiser 416, or the new diety v2 for studio work and sit down interviews.

I've had very good results with a Deity. It ended up sounding a lot better than I expected, and it's pretty directional, so it does a good job of rejecting non-ambient off-axis sound.

 

[David Peterson]

Since the Sound Devices can trigger recording over HDMI with other recorders, it's probably Red in this case.

That is my gut guess, that RED needs to sort it out, although some manufacturer do give triggers a little differently over HDMI I think? So if RED is already doing it, but doing it in a somewhat non-standard way, then perhaps they both need to figure it out.

It seems like it ought to cost less to get it right the first time, rather than call the cast back + rent a sound booth for dubbing.

It is not just less cost/time/hassle, but you're never going to afterwards get quite the same magic every time as you did in the moment from the actors on the day itself.

I've had very good results with a Deity. It ended up sounding a lot better than I expected, and it's pretty directional, so it does a good job of rejecting non-ambient off-axis sound.

They're brought out a mk2 shotgun too, which I've lately been using on the last couple of no budget level shoots when I wanted to leave my Sanken CS3e at home.

 

[David Peterson]

David, what would you recommend, if the criteria would be to record to really good audio straight in to the camera for smoothest workflow? To have quality audio baked into the r3d files for easy playback and reviwing.

(Seams every choice I make there is some one here with bad experiences. No really "bullet pro solution for onboard camera audio.)

What I recommend is:
1) don't record primary audio to camera only (especially as timecode boxes and recorders are so cheap and accessible now)
2) have a dedicated person for audio

Wich red module, and wich external audio preamp/recorder, cables, time code boxes?
I don't see it as a problem but instead bonus to have the audio recorded on the recorder for backup (If the differens is large enough I would of course use this on some project.)

Ok, let's play a hypothetical scenario where I am forced to record audio to a RED only and I've got to do the whole shoot by myself.

But as for how I'd approach it, then I'd need some more specifics, what is this shoot for? Let's say it is a two person seated interview on a very modest budget.

I'd do:

RED ONE MX (because this gives me the most audio inputs! Because being limited to only two inputs is just unacceptable for most of what I do).
Sound 442 in front of the R1, with direct outs going into the R1.
Sony UWP-D11 on each person.
An Oktava MK012 HC on a boom pole (supported by a C stand) above each person, so two in total.
And there we go, we've maxed out the inputs on the 442

One example could perhaps be.
DSMC2 V-LOCK I/O EXPANDER (to use for mic in port, Im guessing you should monitor headphones from the mixpre.)
Sound devices mixpre6 (for preamp and backup recoding) Its really good you can fit the mixpre under the camera.

Go for the Zoom F8n instead of the MixPre6, unless the little bit extra size really really really bothers you. (but the F8n is still a teeny recorder!)

ultrasonic one (to spawn the time code)

Small correction: Ultrasync ONE.
And "generate", not "spawn".

I dont have a budget to go higher than the above components for this audio rig. Since the hdmi triggering won't work with red, I guess the audio recording would be very long, or I would have to start stop recording manually, wich is a bummer, and can kill the above solution as I really like to only hit record once. Its to easy to forget to roll the audio otherwise.

You can remotely trigger a RED, a good idea would be a little DIY box that you hit "start" for then sends two signals out at once to both the camera and audio recorder.

That way it only takes one button press for both.

Also what mic do you recommend for inside work. My current mics are (not so fancy mics but I like to improve on those =) )
octava mk12
rode ntg 2
pin mic lavaliars
Sennheiser AVX-ME2. (I enjoy the easy of use, but they drop out signal little to easy sometimes.)
(and mics for voice over such as Neumann TLM 103..)

Oktava MK012 HC is a popular no budget / indie mic for indoors.

The NTG2 is the one out of place though... get a better shotgun? If on a very tight budget then the Deity S Mic 2 is the obvious choice.

Ditto the Senneheiser wireless, not what I'd want to use, the best sub $1K wireless is Sony UWP-D11.

But im considering the Sennheiser 416, or the new diety v2 for studio work and sit down interviews.

416? For indoors? No.
Shotguns are rarely your first choice indoors.

Get a 2nd Oktava instead to match.

 

[Rakesh Malik]

It is not just less cost/time/hassle, but you're never going to afterwards get quite the same magic every time as you did in the moment from the actors on the day itself.

True that!

They're brought out a mk2 shotgun too, which I've lately been using on the last couple of no budget level shoots when I wanted to leave my Sanken CS3e at home.

I'm pretty sure mine is a Mark1 model, and it sounds very good.