Dsmc..

[dalen johnson]

A few more tidbits about the 5D mkII

"Hard panning in the clips looks good and it seems like Canon have managed the timing of the shutter very well."
http://nrkbeta.no/video-test-clips-from-canon-5d-mark-ii-gets-analyzed/

A little bit of the footage shot by Vincent Laforet: the hard panning (in-car shot) on the 5D looks OK as well as one can tell on such a bad capture:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XggG7iFfoCk

Will be great to see how much better the DSMC will be

Sounds good...but if you take a closer look at the article it says he uses an expensive video tripod.

In a thread on dpreview one person posted that you would need a video tripod that was the cost (or more ?) of the camera to get good results.

So it will be interesting how much this plays into the quality of pans...without it is it just another Nikon 90? (did I get the number right? all these camera numbers being thrown around left and right.)

Peace

dAlen

 

[iandol]

I doubt it is as jelly-bad as the Nikon even sans-tripod, somewhere in the comments he says a lot of stuff was hand-held IINM... And yes, the numbers are way confusing - the subtle act of putting a D either in front or behind a number defining brand and model identity is hardly transparent. Scarlet, Epic, One, Monstro; much better!!!

 

[Santiago Marti]

The RED revolution is simple, you have the owner and the brains of a brand, reading your posts as you write them, really looking at our requests, answering questions, etc. priceless.
yes, they also make a really good camera at a really low price pushing the industry ahead, and sharing an incredible amount of passion with us, the users.
i will stick to red as long as they continue being red. this is not apple or another snobbish brand. these guys are really pushing things, and i and many more want to be a part of this revolution, for as long as it lasts.

 

[RobertP]

Mr. BobSimon, you have got to be the most ignorant person on these boards. You're just full of it, aren't you? You remind me of Ken Rockwell.

Canon has their own sensor development fabrication plants. The Canon sensors are proprietary. They have NOTHING to do with SONY.

Canon DSLRs use Canon sensors that are NOT available to ANYONE ELSE.

Nikon has been using Sony sensors, but recently, the D3 and D700 cameras have used sensors that are supposedly designed by Nikon, but perhaps Sony had something to do with those as well.

 

[swardo]

...their Sensors have similar technical designs and they all get stamped out from the same Sony Fab... Canon makes a line of lenses for Nikon... they even have similar processors and similar microcode.. Great capitalist competition? .. or, something fishy here...

that simply is not true no matter how many times you say it. Every single Canon DSLR ever made has been equipped with a Canon sensor. Sony has made sensors in the past for Canon's P&S division but never for a DSLR.

 

[Steven M. Bailey]

I know that some of nikons older sensors were all made by sony and some entire lines of there 3-7 mp stills were recalled for sensor failure. I am sending back my coolpix 5700 for a second sensor replacement. The first one lasted a few years, the second one lasted about 3 weeks. Its an older camera but a Great p&s when the sensor isn't shot.

 

[swardo]

Consumers watch these videos on their TV which is only 1080p. So, these companies make a 1080p output from their cameras. You can connect your camera straight to the TV and watch the video.

D90 and MKII are real cameras that you can shoot and watch video on TV. DSMC is an imaginary camera at this time. Scarlet has been announced but nobody has touched it. You cannot compare real cameras with imaginary cameras. when DSMC become reality, if it ever become reality, then we can compare.

the only problem is the quote you disputed highlights the features of the RED-ONE which is every bit as real as a D90 or 5DII. (but with vastly superior results)

 

[swardo]

...so yes comparing the real RED ONE against a real D90 or 5DII video capabilities is perfectly valid.

 

[Evin Grant]

The biggest challenge for the DSMC (and epic for that matter) is sensitivity.
The DSLRs that are and will be shooting video in the next 6 months will have extraordinary low light sensitivity. Both the Nikon D3 and the Canon 5DmII have substantially better low light ability than the Red One. I fully expect the Monstro sensor to be on par. Where the DSLRs will lag for quite a while is in compression. Mpeg4/Mjpeg is just not a professional format. No matter how you cut it (no pun intended) there just isn't any way professional filmmakers will adopt those compression schemes for serious work. Redcode has proven it's self time and again, if Epic and the DSMC can match C&Ns sensitivity and bring Redcode to the table they WILL dominate.

The other issue is simple film style shooting. Vincent Laforet seems to think he can produce a 5DmII video shoot that rivals a real commercial, but I doubt he has any of the more complex and common shots that require pulling focus or complex operating or having an agency hanging out in video village. DSLRs simply do not lend themselves to cinema style shooting very well. But there is no doubt that the first shot over the bow of the Red One is here.
Don't forget the 5DmII also doesn't do 24P!

 

[reality]

IMHO, the RED One was the first shot over the bow of the DSLR guys but they didn't really notice.

Low noise at low frame rates is easy. The challenge is doing full sensor at speed and doing it with all the features and compression. Will Canon listen when we ask for multiple monitor outs, etc.?

 

[Ajit_AP]

The idea brought by several people here that these Japanese companies are somehow plotting who gets what is ridiculous. Nikon, Canon (and Sony) are incredibly competitive. The Japanese corporate tradition is stiff competition but mindful of not letting your competitors completely fail. Currently, there is no Japanase DSLR company, as far as I can think of, that is close to such a collapse.

Couple of years ago, when Canon was whopping some serious ass, these comments would not have been made. Because Nikon has stepped up, people assume it is some kind of conspiracy. Yeesh!

I am kinda glad Red is challenging these companies. American and independent is very much up my alley. But Red One is not close to a perfect product. If Jim thinks so, then he needs a dose of skepticism.

So jumping on other projects where the main project is not complete and where other projects have easily slipped to the wayside, one has to question whether this is a wise choice.

If Red played the cards right, I think they can challenge Sony in the video market. They have a excellent group of people. But to jump in the DSLR world is a waste of resources.

These DSLR's have tons of little ittie bittie features that Red has to get right. Can Red do it? I am doubtful.

Here is why:

Red is too focused on power. 5k, 4k, 3k, 2k, full sensor. Epic. Blah Blah. Many users think that is enough. I don't. Red is a feature film camera. That's it. But 95% of uses will need something else.

My guess for the Red DSMC is that instead of relying upon the clicking of the button at the right button like you would in a DSLR, the DSMC will make a raw movie file that you can pull a still out or make a movie out of. This will be revolutionary but also incredibly annoying. Imagine being a photographer and having to filter through hundreds of photos to find the right one. Sometimes choice can be crippling. It also makes the photographer somewhat irrelevant. (again, this is just a guess of how the DSMC will work)

The Red philosophy of providing raw power and then letting users do what they want with it will work in the near future but it is not sustainable. Because at some point, there is something as having too much power. There is ceiling. When the competition reaches that ceiling they will be ahead of Red in implementing that power. It is not that Red can't match the implementation but it will be difficult for Red because it has not been through such a detailed process.

 

[pango]

Panasonic Micro Four Thirds will do HD Video too.

Panasonic Micro Four Thirds will do HD Video too.

Maybe an HD capable successor of Panasonic G1 (see announcement of a "prototype" on dpreview.com) is a more serious competition to your DSMC than the video DSLRs: It has a foldout screen and aa good electronic viewfinder and is thus in principle much more usable for video than the DLSRs which lack the foldout screen and the viewfinders of which go blind in video. This successor will do HD (in which quality?), OK, that is less than Scarlet, but it allows for interchangable optics and lower DOF.

 

[swardo]

My guess for the Red DSMC is that instead of relying upon the clicking of the button at the right button like you would in a DSLR, the DSMC will make a raw movie file that you can pull a still out or make a movie out of. This will be revolutionary but also incredibly annoying. Imagine being a photographer and having to filter through hundreds of photos to find the right one. Sometimes choice can be crippling. It also makes the photographer somewhat irrelevant. (again, this is just a guess of how the DSMC will work)

If that's considered annoying then I can't wait to be annoyed. This camera (if implemented correctly and i have all the confidence it will) is going to open so many doors for a combination photographer/ videographer like myself.

 

[reality]

The Red philosophy of providing raw power and then letting users do what they want with it will work in the near future but it is not sustainable. Because at some point, there is something as having too much power. There is ceiling. When the competition reaches that ceiling they will be ahead of Red in implementing that power. It is not that Red can't match the implementation but it will be difficult for Red because it has not been through such a detailed process.

Wow. How incredibly narrow minded and myopic. It's the same reason why no one else attempted to do what Red did with the Red One.

 

[Kellan O'Connor]

As creative as Your post is, I totally disagree... EVERY single step You have described in the "Lasagna Workflow" applies to digital as well. Do You really skip "all day prepping the noodles and making the sauce, grating the cheese, and grinding the meat (pre-production)" just because You are shooting digital??? Ditto for all the other steps...

Just my one peso...

I am sorry. I totally agree with you as well. I became so caught up in the creative structure of my post I didn't even think about that detail. the "all day prepping the noodles and making the sauce, grating the cheese, and grinding the meat" is more applicable with a post production linear editing.
Thanks for the correction...

I mainly wanted to steer the conversation from the canon Sony Nikon chip argument. It is pointless in this thread... can we please continue with relevant posts about practical differences between RED and competition, rather than personal feuds? Thanks.

 

[reality]

It's interesting that the last couple of 'opinionated' posts are all from guys with under 10 posts who all just signed up. Trolls I say. Or are they employees from competitors?

 

[Matthew Verkler]

You have a lot of nerves fella. Remember that this is RED forum. You have to be very respectful of RED and the people behind it and the red community. Otherwise your ass will be deleted out of here.
You must start with: " RED is the Greatest thing ever invented by God, after creating Univerase," "Jim is a billionaire, so he is right", ..etc.
Then you can do some customary Japan bashing etc. Remember, nothing Sony/Canon/Nikon does is ever as good as RED. Red is revolutionary. Red is .. I don't know.. say something superlative.
You can express your ferocity by using words like mysterium and monstro and DSMC .
Otherwise the fanboys will descend on you like a pack of wolves..

I agree with you there is no conspiracy between the japanese camera companies.
The fact that they all independently sitting in their secret bunkers invent the same features and technologies and manufacturing and pricing at the same exact moment is sheer coincidence.

I am an enthusiastic Red customer, but I found this post to be hilarious. It's okay to not take ourselves too seriously.

As far as "conspiracy between the japanese camera companies" goes, is it a conspiracy to work together to compete well? Japan has a well-known industrial policy that emerged after WWII. Sure, they compete very hard against each other, but they also work together when it suits their purposes. The point is, they are smart and they compete well. There's nothing wrong with that. Whether or not they practice "free trade" or not is another subject. But they are in the game; and now Red is too, and Red is changing a lot of rules, just like Japanese companies did in the past. I personally hope that Red inspires other companies in my country, the U.S., to compete more effectively.

I can't wait to see what Red does next; that is what this thread is all about.

 

[shawngs]

Introducing the Red VectorCam.... ISO 512k, Zero Noise, 360fps, Compatible with all Red/Canon/Nikon/Zeiss/Leica Lenses, Modular Shoulder Mount and/or Traditional SLR Form Factor, Removable 1TB Flash HDD, Price: $999!

 

[Christo]

This is my first post, and I am not here to troll but engage in the discussion of this camera as I am both a professional still photographer and a pro videographer/director (ok still working on getting paid for performing the duties of that third title).


My question, Mr. Jannard, is this: will the DSMC feature different ISO speeds for both stills and video? I often shoot with a Sony Z1U, and after shooting with my Canon dSLR, I always lament the lack of ISO/ASA speed settings when shooting with it.


As far as I know the Red One does not feature this, because, unfortunately I have not used one (or any other extremely high end digital camera yet). From my days of shooting 16mm film, the flexibility to change to a higher speed stock was great even if it was limited when compared to modern dslrs (iso 50 to 25,600).


There's something to be said for switching ISOs. It changes the shooter's expectations, and is more satisfying than fiddling with gain settings, such as those found on pro dv/hdv cameras. Since this appears to be a still camera first with equally good motion picture capabilities it seems reasonable to conclude it will have ISO settings for shooting stills, but will they carry over to the video functionality.


I read that the Arri D20 has ISO settings. I wonder if it is a matter of time for video to evolve and emulate the way ISOs can be switched in the manner of dSLRs.

 

[Jannard]

This is my first post, and I am not here to troll but engage in the discussion of this camera as I am both a professional still photographer and a pro videographer/director (ok still working on getting paid for performing the duties of that third title).


My question, Mr. Jannard, is this: will the DSMC feature different ISO speeds for both stills and video? I often shoot with a Sony Z1U, and after shooting with my Canon dSLR, I always lament the lack of ISO/ASA speed settings when shooting with it.


As far as I know the Red One does not feature this, because, unfortunately I have not used one (or any other extremely high end digital camera yet). From my days of shooting 16mm film, the flexibility to change to a higher speed stock was great even if it was limited when compared to modern dslrs (iso 50 to 25,600).


There's something to be said for switching ISOs. It changes the shooter's expectations, and is more satisfying than fiddling with gain settings, such as those found on pro dv/hdv cameras. Since this appears to be a still camera first with equally good motion picture capabilities it seems reasonable to conclude it will have ISO settings for shooting stills, but will they carry over to the video functionality.


I read that the Arri D20 has ISO settings. I wonder if it is a matter of time for video to evolve and emulate the way ISOs can be switched in the manner of dSLRs.

You can shoot the RED ONE with a multiple of ISO settings... and most do. You are virtually "stretching the image", but that is really what you are doing with a DSLR. You are pushing the ISO until the noise becomes objectionable given the situation.

Jim