DSLR-killer...

[zak forrest]

Having transitioned from a career in the visual effects industry to a still photographer, some of the things on my mind have been:

• Do we really need ISO on our cameras or is it just a carry over from the good ole days?
• Can't someone make a camera that exposes everything in my image like I want? (or even better, how I tell it)

maybe im not reading your post correctly, but won't we always need ISO, or something in it's place, to at the very least tame what our aperture produces? if you want to shoot wide open, or get deep focus, etc, you will need to adjust something to compensate for your aperture setting..

do you mean why do we still have to set the ISO? and why can't a camera automatically adjust so it's never clipping no matter how big or small the aperture is set to?

 

[Steve Sanacore]

I really don't want to fan the flame here- This is not the place to discuss this stuff... but... I will say that one great thing about RED is that they are building a system that does not require proprietary media- to me that is more important than a "post solution" but than again, I'm not an editor... I hope that the editors out there can find away to contribute to the recent shift (RED) toward an honest, fair, non-proprietary, upgradeable, etc. electronic capture market (much the way us shooters have been open to all the new editing standards)...
I'm trying to say this as nicely as I can- I hope I'm not offending anyone- If I am it wasn't intentional and you are probably over-sensitive.

As other camera companies release CMOS based cameras, they will all have a raw mode and all will require software to process the images prior to editing. Just as the still photo industry has done, the movie industry will probably follow. Then the Photoshop equivalent possibly Premiere, FCP or Avid will support all of these formats. I am sure all editing software solutions will have plug-ins for each new format that hits the market. It's only a matter of time. RED is a paradigm shift in a very established and professional market and it will take some time.

 

[Matthew Lochman]

As other camera companies release CMOS based cameras, they will all have a raw mode and all will require software to process the images prior to editing. Just as the still photo industry has done, the movie industry will probably follow. Then the Photoshop equivalent possibly Premiere, FCP or Avid will support all of these formats. I am sure all editing software solutions will have plug-ins for each new format that hits the market. It's only a matter of time. RED is a paradigm shift in a very established and professional market and it will take some time.

i totally agree. cant wait!

 

[Lexicon]

Have you been living in a hole? P2 has a proven, reliable and proven workflow for every editor out there.

I believe he meant "their post solution" as in something along the lines of what Sony has with Vegas. It's quite logical for Panasonic not to have one as software development takes far more resources than hardware development, which in the case of Panasonic, is really little more than incremental advances of older designs.

 

[Chris Pickle]

maybe im not reading your post correctly, but won't we always need ISO, or something in it's place, to at the very least tame what our aperture produces? if you want to shoot wide open, or get deep focus, etc, you will need to adjust something to compensate for your aperture setting..

do you mean why do we still have to set the ISO? and why can't a camera automatically adjust so it's never clipping no matter how big or small the aperture is set to?

I always say that I wish they would get rid of ISO / ASA and just use "Gain" when in the digital world. to me it makes the most sense. Tells us what you are rating your chip at ZERO, then we add gain or negative gain when we want. That's all it is anyway. An amplification of the signal. We would then figure out how much gain any particular shot could handle and make a decision on noise vs more exposure.

I suppose using ISo or ASA is to help the film folks transition to the product, but what about the bus loads of Beta SP shooters. They got by using "gain"

Chris

(btw- I wish my Rebel used gain and Canon told us what zero is)

 

[rawfa]

Will this be available straight away once it's officially announced or will there be a waiting list like Red?

 

[Matthew Lochman]

I always say that I wish they would get rid of ISO / ASA and just use "Gain" when in the digital world. to me it makes the most sense. Tells us what you are rating your chip at ZERO, then we add gain or negative gain when we want. That's all it is anyway. An amplification of the signal. We would then figure out how much gain any particular shot could handle and make a decision on noise vs more exposure.

I suppose using ISo or ASA is to help the film folks transition to the product, but what about the bus loads of Beta SP shooters. They got by using "gain"

Chris

(btw- I wish my Rebel used gain and Canon told us what zero is)

I always say that I wish they would get rid of ISO / ASA and just use "Grain" when in the film world. to me it makes the most sense. Tells us what you are rating your negative at ZERO, then we add grain or negative grain when we want. That's all it is anyway. An increase in the silver. We would then figure out how much grain any particular shot could handle and make a decision on noise vs more exposure.

I suppose using ISo or ASA is to help the photo folks transition to the product, but what about the bus loads of early photographers/cinematographers. They got by using "grain"

nothing personal Chris, I couldn't resist...

 

[M Most]

I really don't want to fan the flame here- This is not the place to discuss this stuff... but... I will say that one great thing about RED is that they are building a system that does not require proprietary media- to me that is more important than a "post solution" but than again, I'm not an editor...

Really? Can you tell me what hard drive I can use with it other than the Red drive? And can you tell me what CF cards I can use other than Red's?

The immediate storage used at production time is not an issue. Both P2 and Red media need to be backed up, and those files can live on any storage you want to use. There isn't a great deal of difference in that regard.

 

[David Rasberry]

I always say that I wish they would get rid of ISO / ASA and just use "Gain" when in the digital world. to me it makes the most sense. Tells us what you are rating your chip at ZERO, then we add gain or negative gain when we want. That's all it is anyway. An amplification of the signal. We would then figure out how much gain any particular shot could handle and make a decision on noise vs more exposure.

I suppose using ISo or ASA is to help the film folks transition to the product, but what about the bus loads of Beta SP shooters. They got by using "gain"

Chris

(btw- I wish my Rebel used gain and Canon told us what zero is)

As a 30 year plus veteran video (and film) shooter, I have always used a log greyscale chart and a waveform monitor to determine ISO/ASA reference points for my video cameras. It allows accurate manual exposure control using an incident light meter to get the best possible image quality from a setup under field conditions where the EVF might not be an adequate reference and a calibrated monitor or vectorscope are not available. It also gives one a whole different level of creative control over the image by manipulating the key and fill levels to control contrast ratios of a scene. I wish the video camera manufacturers did provide ISO/ASA specs for their systems. You don't have to use it, but for ultimate control of your image it is an invaluable tool.

 

[Chris Pickle]

I always say that I wish they would get rid of ISO / ASA and just use "Grain" when in the film world. to me it makes the most sense. Tells us what you are rating your negative at ZERO, then we add grain or negative grain when we want. That's all it is anyway. An increase in the silver. We would then figure out how much grain any particular shot could handle and make a decision on noise vs more exposure.

I suppose using ISo or ASA is to help the photo folks transition to the product, but what about the bus loads of early photographers/cinematographers. They got by using "grain"

nothing personal Chris, I couldn't resist...

er okay... but do you know what "zero" is on a Canon Digital Rebel? I'e dug through the manual, but I can't find it. There is no correlation between ISo on a rebel and ISo on a roll of film. Increasing ISO on the rebel just pushes the signal, ala any one of the gazillin Sony Beta cameras ever sold. It's just amplification of an electronic signal...

 

[Sao_Bento]

They have a hard enough time acting on their own, let alone reacting to Red's speed and ability.

You mean their speed an ability to announce products, I assume. So far, there's one camera product that still has a waiting list for delivery. I'm all for the RED products, but I think you're getting a little carried away.

 

[Jason Ing]

You mean their speed an ability to announce products, I assume. So far, there's one camera product that still has a waiting list for delivery. I'm all for the RED products, but I think you're getting a little carried away.

Let me guess, judging from your statement, you're not a Red owner? Waiting for the Scarlet, perhaps? Epic?

I'll clarify so you don't have to assume. The "speed" of getting firmware upgrades in the short time that Red One has been available and that I've owned one, and Red's "ability" to improve Red One's image is nothing less then amazing (to me).

 

[BobSimon]

You mean their speed an ability to announce products, I assume. So far, there's one camera product that still has a waiting list for delivery. I'm all for the RED products, but I think you're getting a little carried away.

I have seen a scene recorded by RED ONE. The picture was very good.
Because of RED ONE, I can dream of owning a real movie camera.

My Panasonic is not a real movie camera, even though it is easy to use and the post workflow is very simple.

May be red is announcing many products before thay are ready, to keep itself in the news spotlight.

 

[Jason Ing]

They announce it early to get customer feedback.

In my opinion, the very thing that makes them unique and the #1 company to beat.

 

[David Rasberry]

er okay... but do you know what "zero" is on a Canon Digital Rebel? I'e dug through the manual, but I can't find it. There is no correlation between ISo on a rebel and ISo on a roll of film. Increasing ISO on the rebel just pushes the signal, ala any one of the gazillin Sony Beta cameras ever sold. It's just amplification of an electronic signal...

A digital sensor is a medium, just as film is. There is absolute correlation for ISO ratings regardless of medium as it defines the amount of light exposure required for the medium to obtain the best image quality, i.e. broadest dynamic range and lowest noise. You can push film for gain or under expose it just as you can vary the output of a digital sensor's electronics.

 

[Josiah Burdick]

Theories

Theories

Ok guys, I’ve got a few theories on things at Red that most people on the forums don’t seem to be thinking about. Tell me if these sound legit.

1) Because Red (Jim) believes their sensor program is one of their strongest leading points against any competition (agreed), it would make sense that they would first, figure out what kind of sensors they can produce- and where they can push the limits, then design their cameras around them. In this way Scarlet is their 2/3 inch camera, and will NEVER have interchangeable lenses because that requires a different sensor.

2) The DSMC was first talked about in reference to Monstro and that makes me think that it will use the very same sensor. In fact I believe Jim even said that clearly. The question we should be asking is, how many megapixels is 5K? 20MP?

I’ve heard a lot of negative vibes against the arms race for greater megapixels, but personally I support it. The greatest photographer I know, an australian surf photographer told me the reason he would never fully switch to digital was because you can turn a medium format picture into something that covers a whole wall, with very little loss. Maybe red has something that could do just that?

3) Last one. Because the DSMC has the same sensor as Epic, we need to stop thinking of this thing in terms of SLR pricing. It only makes sense that scarlet is their entry level camera, and that the DSMC will be priced between it and the ONE. Between seven and ten thousand sounds reasonable, but knowing red it wouldn’t surprise me if they hit the five thousand dollar price tag. And seriously, for a company that continuously blows away our hopes and dreams on specs, shouldn’t we have learned by now that this thing will do larger than 2k motion, especially if we think of 3k as entry level?

I’m expecting a mode where you hold the trigger down for intense bursts, very much like the old film cameras, for a hybrid between stills and motion. When you put your imagination to work on what features this thing could have, some very exciting possibilities emerge. And they’ve got some of the very best minds, doing just that.
Get very excited.

2 cents? More like sixteen.

 

[no_treble]

Pricing

Pricing

...it wouldn’t surprise me if they hit the five thousand dollar price tag...

I've been guessing from $1800 to $2500 myself, but you may be right. I agree that with the Monstro sensor program this isn't going to be a $500 camera. With Jim (and probably others on staff) owning high-end DSLRs already, I'm guessing this will be competing with everything, including the D3 and the 1D mkIII type systems. That isn't going to be dirt cheap, but hopefully it will still blow away the competition on price.

The main reason I'm sticking around to see what happens is the notion that the DSMC will be UPGRADABLE (the main thing), have QUALITY (i.e., pixel peepers won't be disappointed) high frame rates for both stills and motion (the very-close-second thing) and be very well built. If all that comes to pass, I'll buy a kit. If not, all I've lost is a little time.

 

[10s]

it would make sense that they would first, figure out what kind of sensors they can produce- and where they can push the limits, then design their cameras around them.

That is the first and most important design step, figure out the core competency/technology of the item [sensor in this case] and build up around it. Everything should be an extension of it. Honda has core competencies in cylinder design and the car, motorcycle, lawn mower... are merely extensions off this core technology. Canon's core technology is lenses and everything is an extension around it, cameras, photocopiers, etc... these companies guard and nuture their core competencies/talent well, it's their competetive advantage.

Next for Red would be the code and then ? the glass, and then... Good ideas!

 

[Jannard]

We are not interested at all in consumer cameras at this point... maybe someday, but not now. Everything we release for the next few years will be professional, ground-breaking and interesting. We are not interested to do "what others are doing". Not in the least. If we can't change the future... we want no part of it.

Jim

 

[Joe D'Arcy]

If we can't change the future... we want no part of it.

Jim

And this is what makes your company and your cameras so exciting.