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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DSLR-killer...

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Vermoski said:
I suspect, the DSMC is already in production in China and is being warehoused for 2009 sale.
All these talk about how it should be done what should be included etc. are worthless talk.
Because, I suspect, Jim had a meeting with the Chinese OEMs and the product for RED-branding was selected from their catalog
and downpayment was made and contract was signed, before the DSMC was announced.
Jim is keeping the features a secret to keep the fanboys interested in it. Just a marketing ploy.

I am amazed at how many people keep writing about this unknown product. when the camera hits the market,
it would be just another low priced camera with a lot of pixels and an awkward post workflow.
The pros will look at it, shake their heads and go on shooting their nikons and canons and sonys.

I am not a fan of any particular company or any particular product.
I just made a comment about the situation as I see it on this forum. That is all.

PS: In full disclosure: I own all the above mentioned professional DSLRs. And I think D90 is fantastic.
Click to expand...

You really don't know RED or Jim, do you?...... THEY design and manufacture the cameras......... Themselves. Without Chinese help.

That was a really ignorant post.

I, for one, am freakin' excited for this camera!
 
Vermoski said:
All these talk about how it should be done what should be included etc. are worthless talk.
Click to expand...

Wrong.

You believe this because as an "all of the above" owner you are very accustomed to not being valued for your opinions by every single camera company that you have given your money to.

Red is definitively different. Talk to Red (intelligently and constructively), and they listen. Hardly worthless.
 
Would it be possible to have a modular viewfinder with the option of a traditional, optical, manual focus assist with the split circle and micro-prisms. For me, there is nothing more accurate and precise than these. It is a guarantee that my focus is perfect.
 
Jannard said:
Sensitivity and low noise are helped with large pixels.
Click to expand...

In the case of the D3, it's not the large pixels that give it high sensitivity and low noise. It's the large sensor. Take away that advantage by cropping to S35 and its performance is only good compared to small pixel cameras.

Contrary to popular belief, small pixels have always been at the leading edge of performance in cameras. The lowly FZ50 and G9 capture more light and have less read noise on a per-area basis than the 5D. At base ISO, they're even better than the D3. The problem, of course, is scaling that amazing level of performance up to the area that we need: S35, APS-C, still 35, etc.

Small pixels have a host of advantages aside from just resolution: the noise is smaller (more film-like), artifacts from the debayer are finer, chromatic-aberation can be removed better, aliasing decreases, resampling is better.

The downside is, of course, the tremendous amount of electronics in the camera to move around that much data and store it to flash.
 
kylehance said:
You really don't know RED or Jim, do you?...... THEY design and manufacture the cameras......... Themselves. Without Chinese help.

That was a really ignorant post.

I, for one, am freakin' excited for this camera!
Click to expand...

I believe RED was a great idea. It made a high resolution camera available for low prices. Post software for RED is not yet avaialble. Lenses and other accessories are not available.

There was a lot of speculation and advice and suggestion etc from fanboys before scarlet was announced. We still do not have one for sale and we do not know what will it look like. Now there is same kind of speculation on DSLR killer. I bet nobody will be able to kill DSLR. Canon/Nikon/Sony etc keep bringing out new ideas. Ofcourse their cameras are expensive. But, nobody can make one cheaper at similar quality.

I do not believe RED is designed and built in USA by red Inc. Every part of RED including packaging has foreign markings on it. RED has 30 employees whereas Sony alone has 165,000 engineers.

Like I said, only thing that was unique about RED ONE/Scarlet etc. was the price. (all the technology in RED was already available in other cameras at a higher price.) The low price was achieved by getting rid of the middlemen. The new DSMC will be cheaper than Nikon. Instead of $1200 for D90 body, DSMC body would be $500. (I believe DSMC will be a lower priced knockoff of D90.) But, where will the lenses, which are the most expensive part of camera, come from? Ofcourse from Nikon/Canon/Sony. But lower priced REDs have one benefit in the industry. Now, all of a sudden the other camera companies are lowering their prices. If there were no RED, Sony and others would be selling movie cameras for millions of dollars. Now, the prices are coming down very fast. If DSMC comes out with advanced features and low price, other companies will reduce their prices in response, no doubt. Now, IKONOSCOPE has introduced a 2/3" camera for $9000. http://www.ikonoskop.com/dii/. This could beat the hell out of F900. Unfortunately, these guys do not have the marketing savvy of Jim.

Unlike RED, Canon/Nikon/Sony do design their own products and manufacture in their own fabs and factories. They can lower their prices but RED which depends on OEMs cannot. When PS3 came out Sony was loosing $200 for every piece they sold. They wrote off $5 billions in one quarter for gaining market share. Movie camera is a niche market. it is not big enough for Sony. So, RED could fluorish. DSLR is bread and butter of Nikon/Canon/Sony etc. They will not allow Jim to eat their lunch. (by the way, there was some rumor that Jim has approaced Sony for some sensors and was rebuffed.)

3D is an area where the Japanese have not shown much interest. If Jim come out with a 3D capable camera, that will be a real innovation. I hope Jim make some innovative stuff instead of cheaper stuff. If the quality is semi-decent, I will buy the new DSMC when it comes out. I love low prices. But, I hope Jim will finish the RED ONE project he started. we still need post workflow and lenses and accessories.

Unless Jim himself tell otherwise, I will continue to belive that Jim has signed the manufacturing contract with chinese OEMs before he announced the DSMC and all the features have been already finalised and production has begun.
 
Vermoski said:
I believe RED was a great idea. It made a high resolution camera available for low prices. Post software for RED is not yet avaialble. Lenses and other accessories are not available.
Click to expand...

That's hillarous, LMAO :biggrin:

As for a Sony employee (forgive me if you are from Panasonic, Nikon or Canon - makes no difference), you could, at least, think of something that someone poorly informed could actually believe in, rather than simply laugh his/her arse off by reading your post. :w00t:

To be frank, and unlike with Red One, post options for Sony HDCAM are not available to this date despite waiting for them for over a decade! Well, other than a $200k linear A-B edit suite.... Sony never released HDCAM codec or SDK and the only option is to deal with HDCAM material is through HDSDI uncompressed. Sony has not released SDK or any other solution that would not require transcoding/decompressing/compressing,reformatting, or petra-bytes of high speed storage etc...Sony's support sucks (and that's understatement), and Sony cameras have more bugs than Australian rainforest - I owned one for almost 7 years and I am relieved after upgrading it to Red One!

Lenses not available for Red One!? That's really funny. There are more lens options for Red One than for any other camera that I can think of: Arri, Cooke, Angenieux, Red, Canon, Nikon, Zeiss, Leica, Elite, and of course, all b4 ENG and EC lenses.

I use Master Primes and 300mm Red - the best glass I could dream of - fulfilling my dream more than 100%. And, yes, I owned several high-end HD lenses, including full set of Canon EC primes - they do not compare to the glass that I am proudly mounting on Red One and there is simply no comparison in both quality and availability. Red One wins hands down.
 
Vermoski said:
RED has 30 employees whereas Sony alone has 165,000 engineers.
Click to expand...

I believe having less people is actually a very good thing. The bigger a corporation, the slower it moves. Like for a big ship, it takes forever to make a turn when you are too big.
When you have that many employees, there are so many levels of technical management, product managers, project managers, business people, that it is easy to have a total disconnect between the customers and the end product.
There is a lot of politics that makes the decision making process very ineffective and when that decision is made the market has already shifted. The communication process is also a big mess when there are too many people. You think you know your customers but you don't.
Not to mention the fact that often, you have a business school guy who drives the ship and who only cares about the end $ number and who never uses or exactly knows what his company's product looks like from an end user point of view.
That is also why every single day, you see big corporations acquiring dynamic start ups because of how fast they can come up with a brand new product that answers customer's needs, because they were unable to understand the market, because they were unable to work as fast as they do, because they hope to learn from them, because they hope to kill the competition with that brand new cool product, or because this start up makes them move out too far from their comfort zone and they want the product to end up in a drawer. But most of all, this is also because the star up founders have long been out of control of their babies because they needed investors' money to carry on with their dream, investors who only care about the profit they're gonna make in the short term and who now give in to the gazillions of $ they're gonna make by selling the company.
Hopefully, due to the unique human and financial story behind Red, the passion of the top management who happens to be the most demanding customers for their own products, they're gonna stay dynamic, small, in touch with their customers, AND independent for a long time.
 
Vermoski said:
Now, IKONOSCOPE has introduced a 2/3" camera for $9000. http://www.ikonoskop.com/dii/. This could beat the hell out of F900. Unfortunately, these guys do not have the marketing savvy of Jim.
Click to expand...

Also that IKONOSCOPE Camera has a really ugly and crappy looking design :P

I think Jim's marketing savvy works so well because it has been straightforward. There's no incredible secret to it. Give the people what they want at a price they can afford. It's an "if you build it they will come" mentality that has obviously paid off. We trust Jim because he delivered on the RED One.

That having been said, this DSMC announcement seems to be too soon. I wish RED would get the RED One workflow working like clockwork and then deliver on the Epic and Scarlet before announcing a new camera myself. However, perhaps the guys at RED felt pressured to address new developments from competitors like Nikon's D90 and do it in their own RED-like way. So while at the drawing board they wanted to see what was important to their loyal followers. I'm going to guess that just about everything is theoretical about the DSMC at this point, even at RED Headquarters.
 
Daniel Browning said:
In the case of the D3, it's not the large pixels that give it high sensitivity and low noise. It's the large sensor. Take away that advantage by cropping to S35 and its performance is only good compared to small pixel cameras.

Contrary to popular belief, small pixels have always been at the leading edge of performance in cameras. The lowly FZ50 and G9 capture more light and have less read noise on a per-area basis than the 5D. At base ISO, they're even better than the D3. The problem, of course, is scaling that amazing level of performance up to the area that we need: S35, APS-C, still 35, etc.

Small pixels have a host of advantages aside from just resolution: the noise is smaller (more film-like), artifacts from the debayer are finer, chromatic-aberation can be removed better, aliasing decreases, resampling is better.

The downside is, of course, the tremendous amount of electronics in the camera to move around that much data and store it to flash.
Click to expand...

Minor disagreement here... the D3 has large pixels for a 36x24mm sensor, certainly as compared to the Canon 1DsMKIII. There is less noise per micron with a larger pixel size of the same design. But there are a LOT of other variables to consider. Pixel design is ultimately what separates the "men from the boys".

Jim
 
Jannard said:
Minor disagreement here... the D3 has large pixels for a 36x24mm sensor, certainly as compared to the Canon 1DsMKIII.
Click to expand...

Yes. But the D3 has only slightly less high-ISO read noise than the 1DsMKIII after both are resampled to the same resolution and you take away the D3's noise reduction. I attribute that to better technology in the D3 (namely, gapless microlenses) and not the larger pixel size. At low gain, they are even closer.

I do understand that there are certain types of read noise that smaller pixel sizes deal with, so that they will not continue to improve as larger pixels will. But I haven't seen that effect on the market yet, because read noise has always decreased as density increased. (I'm talking about the RTS part of kTC noise caused by trapped carriers at the Si-SiO2 interface.)

All that is to say I'm glad RED didn't listen to the people clamoring for *less* resolution ("2K would have been better for low light, DNR, etc."), and that you're continue to push the limits of technology.
 
Vermoski said:
Jim is keeping the features a secret to keep the fanboys interested in it. Just a marketing ploy.

I am amazed at how many people keep writing about this unknown product. when the camera hits the market,
it would be just another low priced camera with a lot of pixels and an awkward post workflow.
The pros will look at it, shake their heads and go on shooting their nikons and canons and sonys.

.
Click to expand...

You really have to look at the last two years worth of posts to see how naive your words are.
 
I imagine Jim wont be competing with Nikon, Canon etc... I imagine it will be with Hasselblad.
 
Pawel Achtel said:
That's hillarous, LMAO :biggrin:

As for a Sony employee (forgive me if you are from Panasonic, Nikon or Canon - makes no difference), you could, at least, think of something that someone poorly informed could actually believe in, rather than simply laugh his/her arse off by reading your post. :w00t:

To be frank, and unlike with Red One, post options for Sony HDCAM are not available to this date despite waiting for them for over a decade! Well, other than a $200k linear A-B edit suite.... Sony never released HDCAM codec or SDK and the only option is to deal with HDCAM material is through HDSDI uncompressed. Sony has not released SDK or any other solution that would not require transcoding/decompressing/compressing,reformatting, or petra-bytes of high speed storage etc...Sony's support sucks (and that's understatement), and Sony cameras have more bugs than Australian rainforest - I owned one for almost 7 years and I am relieved after upgrading it to Red One!

Lenses not available for Red One!? That's really funny. There are more lens options for Red One than for any other camera that I can think of: Arri, Cooke, Angenieux, Red, Canon, Nikon, Zeiss, Leica, Elite, and of course, all b4 ENG and EC lenses.

I use Master Primes and 300mm Red - the best glass I could dream of - fulfilling my dream more than 100%. And, yes, I owned several high-end HD lenses, including full set of Canon EC primes - they do not compare to the glass that I am proudly mounting on Red One and there is simply no comparison in both quality and availability. Red One wins hands down.
Click to expand...

Hi Pawel,
Glad to hear your fulfilling your dream, good luck with that mate.
Like you I've owned my fair share of Sony equipment and I agree it's not
always trouble free but HDSI has always been a trouble free way of
interfacing gear, for me and the ENTIRE Australian broadcast TV industry.
I've always seen HDCAM as an acquisition and realease format and have
no trouble working my stuff Umcompessed with a lot of cheap desktop gear now available.
On the other hand some very large post houses in Auz will not handle R3d
files in their post workflows.
The reason is RED don't build a complete SYSTEM. The build the first half,
the camera,(or camera's as we now have four in the works) and rely on
others to supply post solutions. Sony do the same but HDSDI is the glue that holds it all together.
If RED are not interested in HDSDI and want to be different then they have to provide a more complete post production solution. not more and more
cameras.
This is what most of the bitching is about
Cheers Mezmo
 
OK this is what has me excited

OK this is what has me excited

I am a huge fan! Wow really to have the courage to think differently. It's a lonely place.

Tall words...but some are met with actions of tall people. They are facing $1B in R&D of people some of which as enthusiastic. What is it that would make it different? I dont know.

So here it is. There are really only 2 reasonable options:
1) They are a washed up one hit wonder and milking the past with the " we will reinvent the DSLR".
2) They are sooooooo smug because they know they will not have to eat their words.

I vote 2.

ps. It is killing me not knowing what you have in the pipeline :-).
 
mezmo said:
The reason is RED don't build a complete SYSTEM. The build the first half,
the camera,(or camera's as we now have four in the works) and rely on
others to supply post solutions. Sony do the same but HDSDI is the glue that holds it all together.
If RED are not interested in HDSDI and want to be different then they have to provide a more complete post production solution. not more and more
cameras.
This is what most of the bitching is about
Cheers Mezmo
Click to expand...

I'll be the first to admit that RED post production is still a work in progress. But I think you make it sound like RED ignores the issues completely. Well then what about RED ALERT! and REDCINE and so much collaboration between RED and Apple with Final Cut Pro? REDCODE reference quicktime movies can be edited in Final Cut or you can use a free log and transfer tool to import the footage as Apple ProRes HD files, Apple ProRes is the premiere HD codec for Final Cut. And if you really want choices and supported codecs use Scratch. Also RED is working with Adobe and Avid. I think there are plenty of post workflows that any established post house could adapt. As far as your comments on HDSDI, RED One cameras have HDSDI out.

http://www.red.com/cameras/workflow
http://www.red.com/red_mythbusters

Anyway, I do think this DSMC announcement feels premature, but at the same time I don't think RED is ignoring the current problems on the table at all.
 
Evin Grant said:
how about a pre-record like function on the DSMC that continuously records but when you press the shutter release it writes all the frames in memory before and after the moment of exposure but circles (labels) the frame you pressed the button on. Also that singular frame should happen at the instant the button is pressed, even if it's out of time (1/60th) off of the others. This would obviously only be useful for still but it might give both multiple choices and decisive moment options!
Click to expand...

That sounds quite useful- I could have used that function several times just today. I suspect there are technical difficulties to recording the singular frame anywhere off the regular cadence, but I'd be happy with the closest 1/30 sec for most purposes.
 
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