DSCFM (Digital Still Captured From Motion)

[Perry Wilson]

After reading a good thread on shooting still on epic I am really concerned. Not for some people who can afford a lot of gear and multiple cams... Especially of this caliber (and I assume it will be same for scarlet). First Jims quote "Traditional flash sync is not possible with EPIC due to the rolling shutter (doesn't matter how fast the read-reset is). Long duration flashes will be necessary. Since you will be extracting stills from a motion stream, that will require continuous lighting.

DSMC is a change to conventional still photography."

I was SOOOOO excited for 3 years now that RED would finally take the things I LOVE about my 7D (the still capabilities) and put them in in both stills and motion. Now this was never directly stated by RED but certainly implied... A lot of people have been wondering how the flash sync would work with epic/scarlet. It seems that it wont, at least not in a traditional sense. Now I LOVE my Alien Bees, they are beautiful strobes and cheap enough I can break then and not cry. but knowing that I will not be able to use those is a HUGE deal breaker.

I shoot Fashion and Product, I also shoot many short films a features in my area... But I mostly shoot stills. Now I know that using the Scarlet for my still work being only 3K is sill to begin with especially coming from true RAW 5D and 7D stills. But I rarely need 5K images for my client work...

So why not just switch to continuos lighting?

1: Cooking my models isnt cool with me and them
2: overpowering ambient light and the SUN!!! isnt as easy
3: $$$$$$$$$$$$
4: I shoot in the middle of the woods, underwater, sand dunes, mud, grime, and I need PORTABLE POWER!!!
5: getting the same effects isnt the same
6: and finally the pictures will NEVER be as razor sharp


I was very excited to use the scarlet with some beautiful old 16mm glass for stills and my films, but I guess its time to look elsewhere until RED offers something suited for me

 

[Christopher Barrett]

I think it's gonna be cool, Perry. I also use mono blocks, which tend to have long flash durations. Actually, for the sample that's in my thread... I had my D1's dialed almost all the way down, which would yield the shortest possible flash duration for that head and my still grab was illuminated across the entire field. I think it's going to be the high end, short duration packs from Profoto and Broncolor that may prove incompatible. Don't thrown in the towel just yet...

 

[Jonathan Stevenson]

Jim mentions long duration flashes. I don't do still photography at all, so maybe you could explain why that isn't a viable option?

I can see how this news would bum a lot of folks out though...

 

[Christopher Barrett]

As I understand it.... on the Reds the image is read off the sensor line by line from top to bottom (or whatever direction it actually is). If the burst of the flash is too fast, only a portion of the sensor will actually receive the light that the strobe is putting out. Different strobes have different flash durations. The really expensive power packs are tuned to have super short flash durations so that you can do stuff like freeze a dancer in the middle of a leap... tack sharp. Most run of the mill strobes have flash durations long enough that they will be fine with our Reds. I'm really torn about keeping my strobes, though, because you can't shoot motion with them, only stills. Then again, strobe allows you to do things with lighting ratios that are impossible with constant sources.

For someone like me... who shoots stills and motion and happens to have about 20k worth of strobe... it's a quandary.

 

[J Davis]

Jim mentions long duration flashes. I don't do still photography at all, so maybe you could explain why that isn't a viable option?

I can see how this news would bum a lot of folks out though...

The camera shutter time must be much longer and envelope the strobe shutter time. Camera shutter opens, strobe light turns on, strobe light turns off, camera shutter closes.
Because the intensity of light from the strobe is so much brighter than anything else any light during the period of time between the camera shutter opening and before the strobe fires does not register on the sensor. So essentially your strobe time is really your shutter exposure. For example, typically I'm shooting 600 watts of strobe at iso 100 f12 to f16. My photogenics fire off at s1/2000 and this time is enveloped by my camera which is at s1/200

I don't know enough about how the read/reset on epic works but its a shame that Jim said strobes are not possible

 

[J Davis]

I'm still mystified by Jim's response. Its a cmos sensor after all and a $500 canon rebel and do it.

The only thing I can think would be the lack of a mechanical shutter. The read-reset on an epic must function drastically different to that of a DSLR

 

[J Davis]

@Christopher Barrett - what is the slowest shutter speed you can get on your epic?

 

[Christopher Barrett]

1 Second, but I haven't looked at the noise level at slower shutters yet. Initial test was @ 1/24th with Profoto D1 1000 dialed all the way down (from 10 to 4... 6 stops)... so what... about 15 ws I guess. No problem shooting at 1/24th. However, I'm just letting the camera roll, there is no flash sync yet (though it is planned for I'm told). So.... I would imagine that having flash sync is going to be much more reliable than shooting for a frame that happens to coincide with the flash burst. I'm getting way ahead of myself trying to shoot strobe on Epic right now but I've always been into trying to make shit work that isn't supposed to.

 

[J Davis]

I am guessing that Jim is looking at strobes from a motion point of view. (ie light must eclipse camera shutter) otherwise I can see no logical reason why epic or scarlet can't shoot strobes.

If your epic can shoot at a shutter of 1 second then surely it's shutter can envelope/eclipse any of our strobes.

 

[Perry Wilson]

BIG PROBLEM HERE... I shoot high speed photography for a lot of my product shots... my Alien bees will be fine, MAYBE, but my paint sculpture work will be useless... 1/8000 a sec on low power... no WAY the RED will catch that... right now the only way I can make it happen is leaving the shutter open in a pitch black set for about 2 seconds and firing the 100hrtz sound through the speaker and having the speedlights go off via sound trigger... this will never work with the RED... I know this is one example, but I cant explain how often I shoot motion for product and modeling and I need it to be frozen TACK SHARP!! RED is really letting me down here

 

[Ketch Rossi]

After reading a good thread on shooting still on epic I am really concerned. Not for some people who can afford a lot of gear and multiple cams... Especially of this caliber (and I assume it will be same for scarlet). First Jims quote "Traditional flash sync is not possible with EPIC due to the rolling shutter (doesn't matter how fast the read-reset is). Long duration flashes will be necessary. Since you will be extracting stills from a motion stream, that will require continuous lighting.

DSMC is a change to conventional still photography."

I was SOOOOO excited for 3 years now that RED would finally take the things I LOVE about my 7D (the still capabilities) and put them in in both stills and motion. Now this was never directly stated by RED but certainly implied... A lot of people have been wondering how the flash sync would work with epic/scarlet. It seems that it wont, at least not in a traditional sense. Now I LOVE my Alien Bees, they are beautiful strobes and cheap enough I can break then and not cry. but knowing that I will not be able to use those is a HUGE deal breaker.

I shoot Fashion and Product, I also shoot many short films a features in my area... But I mostly shoot stills. Now I know that using the Scarlet for my still work being only 3K is sill to begin with especially coming from true RAW 5D and 7D stills. But I rarely need 5K images for my client work...

So why not just switch to continuos lighting?

1: Cooking my models isnt cool with me and them
2: overpowering ambient light and the SUN!!! isnt as easy
3: $$$$$$$$$$$$
4: I shoot in the middle of the woods, underwater, sand dunes, mud, grime, and I need PORTABLE POWER!!!
5: getting the same effects isnt the same
6: and finally the pictures will NEVER be as razor sharp


I was very excited to use the scarlet with some beautiful old 16mm glass for stills and my films, but I guess its time to look elsewhere until RED offers something suited for me

Perry... DON'T WORRY...


I have not cooked any of my girls yet, and don't plan on cooking one any time soon...

Yes I do have lots of gear, but more then once I am on the road or outdoor, and shooting with LED's on battery power, and or giving power via a small Honda Genny, the Super Silent ones,
no problem in overpowering the sun either, I do even just using a set of CANON 580EX II Flashes, set to continuos, as I would when shooting the 1Ds III, in high speed, shooting 5fps, shooting for short burst,
at 120fps, wil get similar results.

Of course I prefer the use of my Profoto's for this work, connected to a series of triggers, much more powerful, and still very portable, together with the new Batpack they work great.

But using Flash is not an issue when shooting High speed, and shooting the EPIC at any speed will need to be consider High Speed Flash Sync job.


I do understand your point, which ultimately, in order to have the same power at any time, you will need double and some times triple the amount of Flash power,
do to the fact that shooting in High Speed Sync mode, (HSS) will use lees of the full power of any given Flash unit, as it is continuously bursting lower outputs of light.

So yes, some lighting requirements need to be put back on the lighting table before a shoot, and testing needed, but I must say that I am loving what I am doing with EPIC...

In December, when our first Grand Gala EPIC gallery, will be featured in Milan, showcasing only EPIC frame grabs, most of which captured form the beginning as intended Stills extraction,
at exception of some which for particular reasons were captured during the actual intended filming of a particular scene, all printed in a variety of Materials, and again, don't worry too much...


Of course my most absolute FAVORITE remains the BRIESE FOCUS line of Parabolic Umbrellas, both with Flash and HMI lights, just simply nothing else to my eyes allows me to work with lighting and shadows
in such an incredible refined way as this fixtures do, down side... Well, very expensive, and they get pretty Large, and not easy on Windy days for outdoor use.

... Also there are some good LED fixtures coming to market with more trow power then the current panels options, such as the ARRI "L" series, which can work under the rain as well,
and this will become my Workhorse outdoor, as I do love the rain, and many of the planned shoots are under the rain.

 

[Detlev Eller]

... First Jims quote "Traditional flash sync is not possible with EPIC due to the rolling shutter (doesn't matter how fast the read-reset is). Long duration flashes will be necessary. Since you will be extracting stills from a motion stream, that will require continuous lighting.

...

DSMC is a change to conventional still photography."

...

So why not just switch to continuos lighting?

...

hehe ... i have never used a flash in my life ... and will never apart from strobes, maybe ... ;-) ... lol ....

i just found, a long, long time ago, that creating "the zone of action" with fixed lighting and then directing the talent ...
creates a much better way of exploring possibilities, intimate setting, authentic connection, no flashes and distracting bleeps ... the camera vanishes ...

i depend on the visual feedback. i need to see the light taking shape

when running a small advertising agency in the later 90ies, i urged our photographers to do the same ... ;-)


obviously, there are image ideas or styles and techniques, where a flash is (was) needed for a plentyfold of reasons,
which i have decided early on, to not make part of my repertoire ... and hire a skilled pro instead.

Guess its a question of artistic style, think "sculpting with light" with the direct visual feedback.


.... so, yes .... let´s just switch to continuos lighting and get used to the thinking ... its different ...

 

[J Davis]

but its not just about freezing action - its about the 'look'. For example, getting spectral highlights on non reflective surfaces.

 

[J Davis]

As a test: If you shot an epic close to 1 frame per second and at a shutter speed of 1 second then then it should be
read .... (1 second passes) .... reset, read .... (1 second passes) .... reset, read .... (1 second passes) .... reset

You could then hit the wireless triggers manually using the test button and your strobe then controls the exposure 'shutter' as per normal strobe shooting.

Some shots might accidentally land on the ...reset, read... but the majority of fast strobe shutters would be full enveloped.
Unless the epic is doing multiple read-resets during its one second shutter then it should work.

Can someone try this and post?

 

[Christopher Barrett]

You could then hit the wireless triggers manually using the test button and your strobe then controls the exposure 'shutter' as per normal strobe shooting.

Can someone try this and post?

J, as I mentioned in my original thread that started all this, yes it is possible. Image below... Camera rolling at 1/24th shutter, Strobe fired via radio. Profoto D1 1000 at lowest power setting. Every time I fired the strobe one of my frames would grab it.

 

[R. Gonzales]

Perry,
where did you read this? I am a bit confused. I thought there was going to be a dedicated stills function on the EPIC? Isn't there a switch that changes the mode of the camera from motion to stills? Has that been abandoned?

If anyone has answers to these questions, please feel free to reply.

Thanks

 

[J Davis]

@ Christopher, sorry I skim-read due to lack of time. I did not know you were using the technique I described. But its great that it works.

@RED, what about building strobe triggers that are fired by the redmote?

 

[Perry Wilson]

Perry,
where did you read this? I am a bit confused. I thought there was going to be a dedicated stills function on the EPIC? Isn't there a switch that changes the mode of the camera from motion to stills? Has that been abandoned?

If anyone has answers to these questions, please feel free to reply.

Thanks

dont know about a switch, but what Jim said is what he said... no "traditional" sync

 

[Perry Wilson]

I undersdtand in theory this all might work... but thats a lot of money for little ole me to spend on a theory, now obviously as Epics and eventually scarlets become more and more used for this kind of work we will have to see... but I dont see even the 300fps being able to do smooth footage of paint vibrated at 100+ hertz... though I would love to see it mmmm in RED 2k 300fps shit Id love to see it on scarlet 3k at 120... maybe a little twixtor help? but well have to see... speed lights are speed lights, if it works somehow AMAZING!!! if not then poo

 

[Dan Kanes]

@Perry - Come on dude. Seriously?

Firstly:
You rate this sensor Nominally at 800 ASA. This isn't the 100ASA days of Yore.

Secondly:
If you want to figure out a way to make it work, you will. If you want it "done for you" then I don't know what to tell you.