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Dropped Frames - How to Spot them

J

Jamie Metzger

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We are doing motion control on the shoot right now. Production (VTR, MOCO op, DP...etc) needs framelines from all the camera's for framing reasons. B camera gave up it's LCD and is using a panasonic onboard for the 1st. The Operator comes from film, and isn't used to checking for Dropped frames. What are we supposed to do to check ourselves?

This is a 3 camera shoot, with 10+ hours of footage all ready. One roll (shot on the RED RAID) dropped a frame and every clip (15 of them) dropped frames and is now useless. I just heard this from the editor, and this roll is 2 days old!

Why can't Redcine-x tell you about dropped frames? Why doesn't the camera make it RIDICULOUSLY obvious when it drops frames? This is a constant problem with this camera, and something needs to be put in place so we can all check for this issue.

This issue needs to be fixed immediately.
 
Jamie Metzger said:
We are doing motion control on the shoot right now. Production (VTR, MOCO op, DP...etc) needs framelines from all the camera's for framing reasons. B camera gave up it's LCD and is using a panasonic onboard for the 1st. The Operator comes from film, and isn't used to checking for Dropped frames. What are we supposed to do to check ourselves?

This is a 3 camera shoot, with 10+ hours of footage all ready. One roll (shot on the RED RAID) dropped a frame and every clip (15 of them) dropped frames and is now useless. I just heard this from the editor, and this roll is 2 days old!

Why can't Redcine-x tell you about dropped frames? Why doesn't the camera make it RIDICULOUSLY obvious when it drops frames? This is a constant problem with this camera, and something needs to be put in place so we can all check for this issue.

This issue needs to be fixed immediately.
Click to expand...

The DIT, not the editor, tells you about dropped frames, by QC'ing the footage immediately after it's shot. It's also possible that bad data management, not the camera, is the cause of the problem, which seems likely since the DIT wasn't QC'ing the footage in the first place.
 
The camera tells you about dropped frames when they happen.

DIT can only catch dropped frames if they have time to watch everything in real time.

On the old M sensor dropped frames are bright green and really stand out even when scrubbing. On the new MX sensor, dropped frames are neutral grey and hard to spot when scrubbing.

If you are getting that many dropped frames, you must have bad media or are doing something to shake the media or playing really loud sound to cause the dropped frames. Dropped are not common. Get new media ASAP!!!!

The viewfinder and LCD tell you as soon as you have a dropped frame, but it is kinda small.


Dusty
 
Hi All,

I want to jump in on this thread because I have a little bit of insider knowledge into Jamie's production. From what I understand, they are shooting motion control, with locked-off cameras out of reach of the DIT. I'm also under the impression they're shooting with three cameras recording as much as 10 hrs of footage per day. Jamie is indeed spot-checking the footage, but unfortunately he doesn't have time to watch every shot in it's entirety.

I completely agree that Q/C is NOT the editor's responsibility, but the facts on the ground are that in this particular situation there is no easy way for the DIT to tell if the frames are being dropped. The RED status indicators are not being sent out to director's monitors / video village, and as such the only person who can see if the dropped frame light comes on is the camera operator. If the DIT can't see the visual indicators, and is also managing three cameras, he can't be looking at every camera all at once. The operator, not the DIT, is responsible for the camera rolling at speed.

And why isn't anybody playing back to check that the footage is really there on the drive? If Jamie is simply being handed drives, again, he's not in a position to stand at every camera and check playback himself. I'm sure he wishes that he could..

Anyway, it seems like this complex situation, wrought with on-set territory politics, begs for RED to put some sort of optional audible alert on the camera, or perhaps a warning light that's visible from afar. Moreover, it would be very helpful if R3D data manager, or at least REDCine-X, would immediately put up a visual indicator if dropped frames are detected in the footage. Yes, the DIT should, in a perfect world, watch all of the footage. But since this can't and won't always happen, it would be great to have a quick and easy visual alert immediately when a shot is first loaded into the software. That way, even just a spot-check would catch this mission-critical issue.

As for "solving" the problem, whenever I have experienced dropped frames, what I've done is re-format the RED Drive into Fat32, then format it again on the camera (the camera will say "unformatted media" at first). Obviously, this measure doesn't fix shots that already have dropped frames, but it does seem to reduce or eliminate the problem. If possible, I'd also try a different drive cable to be extra safe.

Best,

- Jordan
 
joe hedge said:
Which would also seem to indicate that the problem was a by-product of bad on-set data management, as well as not properly testing the camera drives in prep.
Click to expand...

Personally, I'm a big fan doing the Fat32 format in Disk Utility, then re-format on camera, and record-testing all of the hard drives at prep... Seems like a valuable service, right? Sadly, I can't tell you how many times as a DIT, I do NOT get a prep day. :-( I'm sure that was the case for Jamie on this one.

Again, if the DIT isn't at the prep, and isn't [physically able] to be at camera, then who's "responsibility" is it? Already, this thread is becoming about 'who to blame.' How about: can RED devise a solution for future products that addresses this problem? I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for an optional audible alert, or a blinky light on the drive that everyone can see from afar, or even just a software-based utility that says 'good clip' / 'bad clip.'

Obviously, the "blame" lies with the workflow on this job. It's imperfect, sure, and I'm sure Jamie, the camera operators, everybody else on the crew are trying to make the best out of limited resources. I can't imagine that anybody would mind a more robust method for identifying this issue at each stage of the workflow (at camera, in software, etc.).

Best,

- Jordan
 
Sounds like the operator is the only person on this job who can watch for the dropped frames, and needs to pay attention. It stays on the screen after the roll.

But if they are getting that many dropped frames, their is bad media or bad cables. Something is causing the dropped frames. Reds to not randomly drop frames without a reason.


Dusty
 
What you guys don't seem to understand is that the blame game isn't what works on set. I did my best today (AS THE DIT by the way) to make sure nobody got blamed directly, because it was no one's fault directly. It was a combination of:

The red not being able to output FRAME LINES over SDI while using the LCD and the EVF.
The first AC needed a monitor, so he used his Panasonic 8.4"; with ONLY FRAME LINES and nothing else, no Drop Frame counter, no Media counter...etc.
The Operator wanted to use the EVF, and it's his choice to use it.

You guys have to stop going on witch hunts, and start asking RED to come through with these very basic details. I was at prep. I did test all of the drives and all of the CF cards. The camera's were on Fisher 11's or the MOCO rigs, or Sticks the whole time. No Handheld.

I've seen the RED Drives to dumb things many times in my 100+ red shoots. What we need is for the camera and the company that makes it to account for itself. There is no way in hell that anyone should be responsible for watching every frame of the footage that was just shot. We have better things to do, like Make 3 backups of 2TB's worth of footage, or transcode on set.

Bear in mind that the camera tells you when you drop frames, but as soon as you start recording again, the counter zero's out. Have you ever been rushed by the AD to roll immediately again? GET REAL guys. put the blame on RED if you want to continue blaming people. Real DIT's have better things to do than watch every frame after everyone just saw it on set.
 
ALSO, let's remember that RED doesn't make Red Raids anymore. Nor do they sell you them, or support them. There is a serious lapse in recordable media right now, with CF cards being your only option. CF cards also get corrupted. One step forward, two steps back.

There should have been an overlap of the SSD's and the RED Raids being phased out. I wonder why RED is doing away with the RAID drives. They suck.
 
Thomas: Yes, all of the drives had the ET shock mount. We had the issue on B camera though, which was on sticks for the entire bad roll.
 
If you don't want an answer to your question, why ask it? The answer is YOUR CAMERA OPERATOR MUST WATCH FOR DROPPED FRAMES. That is the situation you are in. Red is not going to write some magical custom software tonight.

Something is vibrating your drives or something is wrong with your drives or cables to cause the dropped frames.


Dusty
 
Dustin: I don't understand why RED won't write "magical" software for an ISSUE that has been around since day 1. People want to make movies, not worry about the camera working.

If you don't want to be helpful, stop replying to this thread.
 
Jamie Metzger said:
There is no way in hell that anyone should be responsible for watching every frame of the footage that was just shot. We have better things to do, like Make 3 backups of 2TB's worth of footage, or transcode on set.
Click to expand...

None of which matters if you're not catching dropped frames, because you'll get blamed, whether you think you're responsible or not. QC of the raw footage comes before anything else, and in my experience you'd have to be really unlucky not to catch dropped frames by slowly scrubbing through the clips, which I always do to every clip no matter what.
 
In the 1000s of hours of Red footage I have shot on Red Raids, I have had very few dropped frames and every time I knew exactly why. Almost everytime I was able to say we are going to get dropped frames before they happened. It has not been a problem since day 1.


Dusty
 
I feel your pain. I think that feature in redcine x is a great idea. The few times I've encountered the problem it was either a vibration hitting the drive (sound or otherwise), a bad drive cable/drive ports, or a faulty connection on the download. If it's the particular camera I'd be surprised, but I'd pull B cam and put a red LCD and try to make it drop frames first thing in the morning. If you need a back up cam and your in LA let me know.
 
Dustin Cross said:
Something is vibrating your drives or something is wrong with your drives or cables to cause the dropped frames.
Click to expand...

Has it happened again? For the short term, I would try a new drive cable if you can. Also, when offloading to the computer, make sure you are using the external power supply and a non-powered FW800 cable, if you are not already.

- Jordan
 
Jamie Metzger said:
...What we need is for the camera and the company that makes it to account for itself. There is no way in hell that anyone should be responsible for watching every frame of the footage that was just shot. We have better things to do, like Make 3 backups of 2TB's worth of footage, or transcode on set.

... Have you ever been rushed by the AD to roll immediately again? GET REAL guys. put the blame on RED if you want to continue blaming people. Real DIT's have better things to do than watch every frame after everyone just saw it on set.

...I don't understand why RED won't write "magical" software for an ISSUE that has been around since day 1. People want to make movies, not worry about the camera working.
Click to expand...

Hear hear...

It's more than a little frustrating to be stuck in what is essentially a permanent beta and keeping your fingers crossed that everything works the way it should.
 
Last edited:
Lots of FUD in this thread IMO.

If a mag does not indicate dropped frames on the camera (this can be checked by the person removing the mag from the camera in this case), passes checksum in R3D DATA Manager, loads and scrubs through in RedCine X then it is NOT the responsibility of the DIT or DAS if there are dropped frames.

I've heard so much FUD in the last few days regarding dropped frames it has made me crazy.

Formatting or manipulating data on red media (other than writing zeros to the disk to fix it) is the number one cause of on-set problems with red media. I don't care what anyone else says. The only thing you should be doing besides duping from red media, EVER is zeroing the media in the event of some kind of problem.

Someone actually said that a CF card reader can overheat causing "drop frames."

FALSE.

You can get a bad checksum, but the thing is not a "tape" style media and you won't get drop frames in that sense. Errors happen. We often don't have time to watch through every clip at real time, nor should we.

I use a CALUMET brand FW800 reader. This is the best reader I have ever used. Lexar reader sucks balls, Sandisk Reader sucks balls, Sonnet qio - bollocks. My Calumet will read media that no one elses readers will in the event of catastrophe, and it costs less too.

Any mission critical job should be run through R3d data manager for a checksum - especially anything bonded.

Our best protection against FUD, and the hateful words of producers, and other members of the camera crew is to create our own set of standards and practices. This is especially important when jumping into a new crew.

If you do receive a bad checksum, or error in the process - the best thing to do is separate that media and not send it back to the camera for the next go-around.

This highlights the importance of media redundancy.

Why would someone only send out ONE Red Drive on a job with a shit-ton of CF cards? Makes no sense to me. Happened on a job the other day, and I was like "huh?" why even bother. If you don't have at least two drives, then there is literally no point even using one.

Oh here's another one for you:

anyone ever fry a FW800 port because of using the Red Raid Power supply?
This goes against the common notion of not using bus powered FW800, but I've had less problems not using the red raid power supply than using it believe it or not.

Another one is - Daisy chaining FW800. Bad Idea.

In my experience this is something that is NEVER TO BE DONE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. I only use FW to connect to the red media, all of my*backup drives are connected through Esata.
 
I downloaded the Drive with the dropped frames using R3D DM. I have the log file. No errors were reported. I scrolled through and didn't notice any grey or green frames. I transcoded and made backups.

Ironic thing is that the dropped frames DON'T show up in RC-X anymore. I had to bring the footage into FCP-Log and Transfer to notice the grey frames.

TOO late to do anything about it. There needs to be a better way to catch the dropped frames before it get's to the DIT.
 
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