Dreamcolor 2480

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

Then I guess you're completely missing the point of need to calibrate the monitor. If you going to use this screen to just watch movies, then it doesn't matter and you can use at an even brighter settings. Modern screen tend to be very bright, because people tend to prefer brighter pictures. But if you're going to use this screen for any kind of video work, 100 cd/m2 (29.19 ft-L) is the standard settings for REC-709. This way any picture would look correctly on every monitor and not only yours. And if you're planning on doing any DCI or film work, than it gets even worse. In that case the luminance level should be set at 47.96 cd/m2 (14 ft-L). But if you don't care about calibrating your screen, I doubt very much, that you'll be doing that either.

Do you have the dreamcolor? Set it to 100 cd/m2 and then tell me if the output brightness is near any broadcast monitor. I have a grade1 Sony crt and the brightness doesn´t match at all.
One thing is the theory and the other is reality.

 

[stephan orlandic]

Hello macgregor,
I have three of these displays.
I will get back to You little bit later with some settings,
but You are absolutely way wrong with WIDE and 150 cd/m2.
Regards

 

[jake blackstone]

Do you have the dreamcolor? Set it to 100 cd/m2 and then tell me if the output brightness is near any broadcast monitor. I have a grade1 Sony crt and the brightness doesn´t match at all.
One thing is the theory and the other is reality.

Just because I haven't killed anybody, doesn't mean, that I don't know it's wrong. You're killing your ability to properly judge video images on the screen. Rec_709 is manufacturer and technology agnostic. It's not a suggestion, it's mandatory for anyone, that hopes to do any kind of HD video production. I understand your wish to use your screen at 150 cd/m2, but your only hope in this case is to petition EBU to change the standard
As far as your Sony monitor not matching, that means you're committing a double murder. Something tells me, that your Sony is set to 150 cd/m2 as well, if you need to boost your Dreamcolor to match. Sony CRT monitors aren't designed to operate at that luminance level and it results in poor focus and purity, elevated blacks, general color instability and most important, greatly diminished lifespan of your CRT tube. You're killing your Sony monitor and you're killing me

 

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

Jake, do you have the dreamcolor?
You´re asuming that the HP screen outputs the same amount of light at 150 than a crt or other lcd screen at the same setting. ANd it doesn´t. I can set the eizo 241w at 150cd/cm2 and they don´t look the same. So it could be that the firmware is not updated or that HP goes by a different specs.

About gamut i agree that 709 won´t display so many colours but until i get a probe, the rec709 color space doesn´t look correct in here.

 

[jake blackstone]

Jake, do you have the dreamcolor?
You´re asuming that the HP screen outputs the same amount of light at 150 than a crt or other lcd screen at the same setting. ANd it doesn´t. I can set the eizo 241w at 150cd/cm2 and they don´t look the same. So it could be that the firmware is not updated or that HP goes by a different specs.
bout gamut i agree that 709 won´t display so many colours but until i get a probe, the rec709 color space doesn´t look correct in here.

Seriously, I give up. You just hear what you want to hear. Rec_709 is manufacturer or display type agnostic. That means, that it doesn't matter what kind of monitor you have in order for it to display colors according to Rec_709. I can see, that I'm just wasting my time. I guess next time I'll offer advice to someone who really need it or appreciate it...

 

[sander kamp]

Are we talking of the brightness setting in the OSD? Or a brightness setting that is calibrated? Looking at the OSD the numbers of brightness go from 0 to 250 which one would assume that it is cd/m2 but I am not quite sure.

With rec 709 are you supposed to work in a completely dark room? Or can you still have some light in it? How long does it take for you eyes to get used to a dark room when coming from the bright world outside.

Sorry for the many questions but I just got this screen as well (not the probe yet) and find using it quite confusing.

 

[sander kamp]

Are we talking of the brightness setting in the OSD? Or a brightness setting that is calibrated? Looking at the OSD the numbers of brightness go from 0 to 250 which one would assume that it is cd/m2 but I am not quite sure.

With rec 709 are you supposed to work in a completely dark room? Or can you still have some light in it? How long does it take for you eyes to get used to a dark room when coming from the bright world outside.

Sorry for the many questions but I just got this screen as well (not the probe yet) and find using it quite confusing.

 

[jake blackstone]

Are we talking of the brightness setting in the OSD? Or a brightness setting that is calibrated? Looking at the OSD the numbers of brightness go from 0 to 250 which one would assume that it is cd/m2 but I am not quite sure.

With rec 709 are you supposed to work in a completely dark room? Or can you still have some light in it? How long does it take for you eyes to get used to a dark room when coming from the bright world outside.

Sorry for the many questions but I just got this screen as well (not the probe yet) and find using it quite confusing.

Sorry, but I'm not offering advice anymore. I'll let someone else do it...

 

[Brian Broz]

Jake and all,
Should we start a new thread on this? There are lots of us curious about integrating the (reasonably priced) Dreamcolor in location and post production.
We're appreciative of any comments those with experience may have.
For example...I'd love to use a Dreamcolor set up for 10bit grading on location, but wondering if a MXO2 or Kona 3 is the best choice. I realize neither work directly from RedAlert or Redcine (bummer) as those are used as a quick look/reference for the DP between takes/setups.
Any suggestions are always welcome and appreciated!

Brian Broz

 

[jake blackstone]

Jake and all,
Should we start a new thread on this? There are lots of us curious about integrating the (reasonably priced) Dreamcolor in location and post production.
We're appreciative of any comments those with experience may have.
For example...I'd love to use a Dreamcolor set up for 10bit grading on location, but wondering if a MXO2 or Kona 3 is the best choice. I realize neither work directly from RedAlert or Redcine (bummer) as those are used as a quick look/reference for the DP between takes/setups.
Any suggestions are always welcome and appreciated!

Brian Broz

Hi Brian.
The question of color science for color grading is of an utmost importance and, unfortunately, it is least understood. As I'd posted before, it's not a question of any particular display device, but a comprehensive approach to the screen calibration and of your grading environment. I understand that there is great excitement about the first affordable 10 bit screen-Dreamcolor. But the increased color resolution are less important to the end result. Proper screen calibration and the working environment is infinitely more important. 8 or 10 bit of screen resolution is just the display resolution and it will not affect your final result. The only visual difference between 8 and 10 bit is that you may get some color distortion, that you wouldn't otherwise see on 10 bit display. Actually, lots of people grade successfully with just DVI output from the graphics card and DVI supports only 8 bits, unless it's the dual DVI. Any monitor, including Dreamcolor, has to be properly calibrated to Rec_709 for video work or P3 for DCI. So, even if Dreamcolor is used in 8 bit mode you still should have no problems using it for basic RC or RA work. They both work off the full 12 bit of r3d and you still can output 10 bit QT or DPX. Monitor has no bearings whatsoever on the transcode process. In order to be able to use Dreamcolor in 10 bit mode you'd have to use HDMI v1.3 or higher or the display port. KONA 3 supports Dual Link 4:4:4 HD-SDI, with full bandwidth 4:4:4 RGB at 10-bits for 1080i, 1080p. Dreamcolor doesn't support SDI, so that wouldn't work, unless some other type of external device is used. MXO2 does have HDMI outputs, that supports 10 bit, so it seems that this may work, but I'm not sure...

 

[sander kamp]

HP recommends the Gefen HDSDI to HDMI scaler box. The reason is that it is 10 bit and can output RGB HDMI. One of the big drawbacks of the Dreamcolor is that the internal color processing is bypassed when you feed it an YUV signal after which it will just display all the colors it is capable of. So you need to feed it a RGB HDMI signal which is unfortunately not so easy. Not sure if the MXO2 can do that.

Please Jake, your advice is greatly appreciated here. It's so hard to get this information anywhere!

 

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

Seriously, I give up. You just hear what you want to hear. Rec_709 is manufacturer or display type agnostic. That means, that it doesn't matter what kind of monitor you have in order for it to display colors according to Rec_709. I can see, that I'm just wasting my time. I guess next time I'll offer advice to someone who really need it or appreciate it...

Whatever...

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Maybe this could help too or it was discussed already:


"How AJA’s new Hi5-3G may fix your DreamColor connection"

"In the coming weeks, I’ll be doing a full review of the HP DreamColor 30-bit monitor (10-bit per channel) and the Hi5-3G. Stay tuned. (Allan Tépper)"

 

[Barend Onneweer]

I agree that 100cd should be the right Value, but don't you agree that today's plasma , LCD etc...Have much higher Luminance , so maybe is better calibate the image considering that the viewers will have this super contrast bright display?

That's a slippery slope right there. Then we may as well start mastering our music on Apple's iPod earplugs.

Average viewing conditions are taken into account in the standards and recommendations. Digital Cinema grading is done in a completely dark room - whereas video grading needs to be in a dimly lit (at 6500K) environment. SMPTE even recommends a 'bias light' behind the screen.

But standards need to be standards in the end.

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

From what I'm reading I understand that Miguel has no means to really measure the brightness... so he is using his eyes and he sees that the 150cd on the OSD of the monitor is not as bright as a Sony broadcast monitor...

So don't fight...

Miguel use your practical methods to bring it in a workable level... Of coarse you can understand that for critical color, thats not enough... I don't have any personal experience with the dreamcolor...

If you want to help you call on skype...

 

[stephan orlandic]

I just got this new monitor today and i´m having problems choosing the right color space. From all the listed options i can´t choose any that really satisfy me.

Ideally i´d like to choose sRGB but the dreamcolor sets the gamma up to 2.4 and that doesn´t make any sense to me.

The usual gamma of 2.2 is not any longer been "absolutely" referenced when using LCD display. Especialy with custom products like DREAMCOLOR.
So using gamma of 2.4 has been adopted for some time when using some computer display panels.
There are many white papers from sony, panasonic, ..., about charateristics of LCD panels.
Gamma of 2.2 on LCD is not the same thing as 2.2 on CRT.

sRGB has the same color primaries, and white point 6500k x=313 y=329,
as rec709, but it should been specified for luminence as 80 cd m/2.

rec709 is way darker than any grade 1 CRT i have ever seen so i don´t understand what´s going on here.

True, the setting of luminance on 709 is not correct, but the primaries are correct, so just change the value to 80cd/m2 or 100 cd/m2.
If You want gamma 2.2. Or if You want gamma 2.4 use sRGB.

I have an eye one 2 probe to calibrate the display but i´d rather pick the best setting on the HP screen first and then run the calibration software. Also i´m starting not to trust too much the eye one display since it takes too many decisions by itself (no option for gamma or color space, why?).

You must buy HP probe to calibrate it.
and install OBIWAN driver.

I also have an eizo 241W at my side which i long time ago gave up trying to calibrate...

Than You either do something wrong, or Your display is wrong.
Eizo cg241w is by far the most superior display device used in print, video, photo industry, when it comes to calibration and accuracy.
Also, it has the best color uniformity across the screen,
unlike DREAMCOLOR.

Overall the JVC HD1 projector is by far the most accurate color "display" i can trust in this room.

First of all accurate by what means ?
Eye or an instrument ?
Do You have Konica-Minolta or Photo Research color meter to mesure it?

Second of all,
JVC projector has very poor CMS, so without some expencive external processor and more expencive probe, it can not be calibrated.
That is a well known fact about JVC projectors.
Except for RS20 with a new 1.1 firmware, which has very good CMS now.

 

[stephan orlandic]

So far, the best results for me come using the wider gamut setting but lowering the brithgness to 150 cd/cm2

wider gamut is completely not acceptable for grading.
Also, Your maximum luminence level should be set to 100cd/m2.
Anything above that is not correct. Thats a fact.
All broadcast CRTs and LCDs are being calibrated for rec709 and 6500k x313/y329, with either 80cd/m2 or 100cd/m2.
There are various debaates about Your grey level, but that is another story.
I have succeeded to match almost perfectly dreamcolor with gefen sdi scaler,
to our 50k CRT monitor.

 

[stephan orlandic]

Then I guess you're completely missing the point of need to calibrate the monitor. If you going to use this screen to just watch movies, then it doesn't matter and you can use at an even brighter settings. Modern screen tend to be very bright, because people tend to prefer brighter pictures. But if you're going to use this screen for any kind of video work, 100 cd/m2 (29.19 ft-L) is the standard settings for REC-709. This way any picture would look correctly on every monitor and not only yours. And if you're planning on doing any DCI or film work, than it gets even worse. In that case the luminance level should be set at 47.96 cd/m2 (14 ft-L). But if you don't care about calibrating your screen, I doubt very much, that you'll be doing that either.

This is absolutely true,
and I would recomend You macgregor, to listen these advices if You realy want to have reference monitoring.

I would only add that You should use 16ft-L when doing film print,
since that's a standard for open gate projection on a screen in cinema.
14ft-L is for DCI and when white film has been projected in theater.

 

[stephan orlandic]

Do you have the dreamcolor? Set it to 100 cd/m2 and then tell me if the output brightness is near any broadcast monitor. I have a grade1 Sony crt and the brightness doesn´t match at all.
One thing is the theory and the other is reality.

This means only that Your Sony BVM is not calibrated well.
Use a professional color meter and measure Your Sony,
if it is much more than 100, as You say, than You should hire some professional
to calibrate Your display.
Also, it should be calibrated for every input and resolution individualy.

 

[stephan orlandic]

HP recommends the Gefen HDSDI to HDMI scaler box. The reason is that it is 10 bit and can output RGB HDMI. One of the big drawbacks of the Dreamcolor is that the internal color processing is bypassed when you feed it an YUV signal after which it will just display all the colors it is capable of. So you need to feed it a RGB HDMI signal which is unfortunately not so easy. Not sure if the MXO2 can do that.

Please Jake, your advice is greatly appreciated here. It's so hard to get this information anywhere!

The gefen is recommended because it does 422 to 444 conversion in real time,
so even if You feed it with 422 link, You can use color managment on Dreamcolor. Which is unavailable when using direct 422 signal.