Dragoncolor or LOG?

[Sam Joos]

What are you guys mainly shooting with? I keep bouncing back and forth. I have been mainly going with Dragoncolor gamma4

 

[D Fuller]

Shoot with Dragon color, grade with redlogfilm.

 

[PatrickFaith]

Shoot with Dragon color, grade with redlogfilm.

+1 ... Thanks for validating what I do. I also adjust iso during compositing, but keep color at 5k Kelvin, and leave all the fancy stuff to the colorist after compositing is done.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Dragoncolor2 + Whatever Looks Best.

I always render Redlogfilm DPX out of RedCineX for maximum flexibility in the grade and if I like RG4 or RG3 I'll just apply a LUT. I'll usually flip through all of the colorspaces (RC4, RC3, RC2, RC) Just to see if it doesn't happen to look great on that setup.

For exposure corrections and compositing I work in Linear gamma, for curves, lift and gain I almost always perform them in cineon (redlogfilm) gamma, for saturation I almost always apply it in sRGB gamma. I use every gamma for its intended purpose and often use all of the major gamma spaces in one shot at one point or another.

 

[Sam Joos]

Shoot with Dragon color, grade with redlogfilm.

Interesting, I tried that today as well and got awesome results with some fuji luts. Which made me start this post. Curious, why not just shot in redlogfilm?

 

[David Battistella]

You can capture with any gamma space you like. It's not baked in, it just what will first show up in rcx when you load the clip and it reads the RMD file.

so you actually are "shooting" in every gamma space available. If you want to set you camera to REDlog film, just set it in camera, it doesn't change the sensor data, just the meta data.

the gamma spaces like RG3 and RG4 put a gamma curve based on RLf to approximate contrast and an already graded look out of the box.

PS, you should download Gavin's LUT files, they are an excellent starting point for grades in resolve or in apps that accept 3d cube luts

battistella

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

And even if the Gamma was baked in, as long as you know what gamma it was shot in you can mostly reverse just about every major gamma space. So if you did render out say RG3 ProRes Quicktimes you could just apply a RedGamma to RedLogFilim LUT and be back to Log. The reason you wouldn't want to shoot in Log though is that it will give you a poor understanding of your exposure. Log pushes black up to about 10% Gray and pulls white down to 70% white. So you will probably underexpose everything thinking that you're well above the noise floor. It's best to monitor with a viewer LUT like REDGamma which properly crushes the noisy bits of the black and boosts the near-clipping to white to ensure you have room on the top for a nice rolloff.

 

[Akin A]

Might be a little more clear to ask about gamma spaces used within each step: 1) monitoring, 2) editing, 3) grading.
Somebody might have a reason to use a different gamma space for each step.

 

[Bob Gundu]

What are you guys mainly shooting with? I keep bouncing back and forth. I have been mainly going with Dragoncolor gamma4

Perhaps Sam you are unaware that Red cameras always shoot raw. It's all metadata that can be changed after the fact.

 

[Phil Holland]

As Bob describes, Red cameras shoot REDCODE RAW. Your Color Space and Gamma Space are metadata. As well as ISO and "look" based settings.

So truly when shooting you want to use what will help you make the best decisions when exposing and focusing. Having a "normal-ish" looking image with some decent contrast usually helps you make good decisions. Then through the process of editing and finishing is often where you tweak settings to get the image you're happy with.

Akin suggested a step by step example. So mine typically would be this:

1. Monitoring = DRAGONcolor/REDgamma4 (or DRAGONcolor2 and some prefer using older gammas even)
2. Editing = Depends on if a First Look Color Pass was done in Redcine-X Pro, but it's either the in camera settings or that quick color pass in either the .R3D or Proxy files
3. Color Correction and Grading = Personally most of my work is DRAGONcolor/REDlogFilm as a starting point when working deeper on color.

 

[D Fuller]

Interesting, I tried that today as well and got awesome results with some fuji luts. Which made me start this post. Curious, why not just shot in redlogfilm?

Sam, I shoot with Dragoncolor because I find it hard to make lighting judgements looking at a log image. And because my clients think log images just look bizarre.

But grading from a log gamma has many advantages -- there are a lot of technical advantages, like preservation of DR the ability to use Cineon-based luts, etc. but the biggest creative advantage (for me) is that it's like starting the grade with a clean slate and fresh eyes (maybe that's redundant, but you get the idea).

I do use log monitoring a lot when shooting available light (to keep a better eye on DR). I have a side handle button mapped to switch the monitorsto RLF.

Might be a little more clear to ask about gamma spaces used within each step: 1) monitoring, 2) editing, 3) grading.
Somebody might have a reason to use a different gamma space for each step.

For editing, I nearly always render proxies using the gamma the clients saw when we were shooting. That way they focus on the edit, not on some new thing they see in the photography.

 

[Sam Joos]

You can capture with any gamma space you like. It's not baked in, it just what will first show up in rcx when you load the clip and it reads the RMD file.

so you actually are "shooting" in every gamma space available. If you want to set you camera to REDlog film, just set it in camera, it doesn't change the sensor data, just the meta data.

the gamma spaces like RG3 and RG4 put a gamma curve based on RLf to approximate contrast and an already graded look out of the box.

PS, you should download Gavin's LUT files, they are an excellent starting point for grades in resolve or in apps that accept 3d cube luts

battistella

I am aware its all metadata and essentially when shooting in say dragoncolor gamma 4 its basically (do I dare say) a lut output to the monitor.

Before I purchased the Dragon I shot quite a bit on the BMCC (still do from time to time for second angles, which surprisingly the 2.5k upres to a 4k timeline beautifully) and always shot in log/film mode. I ETTR the bmcc just right before i would hit 100% zebra and would then be able to create amazing looking images inside resolve.

However I found when shooting in redlogfilm as my starting point my results were extremely "milky" but if I shoot in Dragoncolor gamma 4 and then change my clips to redlogfilm inside resolve I am getting better results but I feel I could have hit the highlight end a little more to get cleaner blacks.

Thanks David I will check out Gavin's LUT files!

Thanks guys for the replies.

Phil - this self image you shot is so impressive, skin tones look amazing and blacks are super clean. Did you grade in resolve? If so where was your starting point in resolve for this?
http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/reduser/phfx_redDragon_schneiderCineXenarIII95mmMe.jpg

 

[Bob Gundu]

Results should be the same in resolve no matter what you record with. Also, You should always use your exposure tools instead of what you see on the screen. Perhaps that's why you are getting different rxposure results.

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil - this self image you shot is so impressive, skin tones look amazing and blacks are super clean. Did you grade in resolve? If so where was your starting point in resolve for this?
http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/reduser/phfx_redDragon_schneiderCineXenarIII95mmMe.jpg

Cheers Sam, appreciate that. Just got in after a long night of camera tests.

That's a quick first light out of Redcine-X Pro actually and using DRAGONcolor/REDlogFilm. Single diffused daylight source and a Schneider Cine-Xenar III 95mm prime. Don't remember the T stop, but probably a 2.8/4 split.

Dragon has very, very good color. Can't stress that enough. I'd say industry leading color overall, but that would ruffle feathers.