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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon...

This is an incredible announcement.

Can anyone from RED comment on whether a 4:3 sensor will ever be an option?
I initially thought that it's the hardware (and/or processing speeds) that perhaps restricted extra height.
I'm really hoping for full anamorphic lens use without cropping, which would be about 18.5-19mm in sensor height (film gate). even if it is at slower fps.
 
Mwuahaha

Bravo....Red strikes again.

I really appreciate the consideration for the Scarlet Upgrade to take place in 2013, very smart move. That's more than enough time to finalize my Scarlet investment, save for Dragon, and also have extra cash on the side to be happy... AWESOME!!

This is great news for all us freelancers and Red owners. I can't wait to get the full spec sheet and hopefully some content!

NAB 2012 proves that Red is leading the pack. I feel way better about my purchase.

:thumbup1:
 
What makes you think the new dragon is going to reduce the noise that dramatically? Dragon is still a daylight sensor?

ericyoung said:
with really low noise.
Click to expand...
 
[COLOR=#FFFFFF !important]
Mike Halper said:
So we need an image circle of 33.9mm (basically 34mm) to cover in 6K with no vignetting, right? Which means, Zeiss Ultra Prime 16mm (33mm according to Matthew Duclos http://web.me.com/ducloslenses/DataRef/ImgCir.html) won't cover, right?
Click to expand...

I think you will have less trouble with lens coverage than you imagine. The Dragon sensor is natively 1:1.9 and this is not a deliverable format. You will be cropping the sides to deliver 16/9 TV or 1:1.85 for cinema and cropping vertically for spherical 1:2.40
15.8 x28mm. 1:1.78
15.8 x 29.3mm 1:1.85
12.5 x 30mm. 1:2.40

Sorry working out the image circle size is beyond my mathematical ability.

It's strange that the sensitivity of the Dragon chip has not been announced and I assume this has yet to be locked down. But at 800asa we are already struggling with EXT light levels. In TVC world shallow depth is generally preffered and we are forced to use huge amounts of ND that can degrade the image. I can't even purchase a set of the Schneider Platinum NDs as they have been so hard to manufacture to the required quality at such strong light attenuations.

As much as I applaud a faster chip OMG how do you ND a 1600asa or faster chip in Australian midday light? Red please accelerate the ND OPLF idea that was discussed so many months ago or we are going to need ND21 or ND 24 filters!
[/COLOR]
 
Scott Crawley said:
I'm not pouncing. Please don't feel that way. I may be taking a more emphatic tone just to get people to listen because nobody seems to, but it is not directed solely at you. You are not alone in this. I think people need to finally accept that R1 development is over. Red has pledged support in the form of repairs, software and firmware, but no new R1 hardware is likely forthcoming.

Jim could probably use a break. He and Jarred have answered the question "Will there be a Dragon upgrade for R1?" many, many times.
Click to expand...
Scott, these questions are directed at RED....because RED made statements that still resonate in the red forum.....we all want to know (finally, once and for all) what was meant by the "STATEMENT" you will be sorry if you sell your red...or something to that effect. Not for anyone but RED to answer......this is an executive statement no? not for us to answer. but WTF does it mean? keep my R1 and continue to loose $$ on resale or Hold on for a BIG announcement....? This was a CLEAR CUT statement and one that seemed to mean something. so for us as red fans to anser for red is not good enough.....

AND...this may have NOT|HING to do with DRAGON--but WTF does or DID it mean? i'm going to get a ham sandwich in the mail? or my R1 is going to be a collectors item? i say this as a joke, but for many....holding on to 35k worth of gear based on THAT statement could be devastating....
 
Everyone's gotta get what they gotta get. If that's what you need then I'm not trying to stop you. It's your money. I'm just trying to help.
:beer:

Johnny Friday said:
Scott, these questions are directed at RED....because RED made statements that still resonate in the red forum.....we all want to know (finally, once and for all) what was meant by the "STATEMENT" you will be sorry if you sell your red...or something to that effect. Not for anyone but RED to answer......this is an executive statement no? not for us to answer. but WTF does it mean? keep my R1 and continue to loose $$ on resale or Hold on for a BIG announcement....? This was a CLEAR CUT statement and one that seemed to mean something. so for us as red fans to anser for red is not good enough.....

AND...this may have NOT|HING to do with DRAGON--but WTF does or DID it mean? i'm going to get a ham sandwich in the mail? or my R1 is going to be a collectors item? i say this as a joke, but for many....holding on to 35k worth of gear based on THAT statement could be devastating....
Click to expand...
 
Johnny Friday said:
Scott, these questions are directed at RED....because RED made statements that still resonate in the red forum.....we all want to know (finally, once and for all) what was meant by the "STATEMENT" you will be sorry if you sell your red...or something to that effect. Not for anyone but RED to answer......this is an executive statement no? not for us to answer. but WTF does it mean? keep my R1 and continue to loose $$ on resale or Hold on for a BIG announcement....? This was a CLEAR CUT statement and one that seemed to mean something. so for us as red fans to anser for red is not good enough.....

AND...this may have NOT|HING to do with DRAGON--but WTF does or DID it mean? i'm going to get a ham sandwich in the mail? or my R1 is going to be a collectors item? i say this as a joke, but for many....holding on to 35k worth of gear based on THAT statement could be devastating....
Click to expand...

First, congratulations to RED for pulling off those specs with the RED DRAGON.
I never expected 6K at this time frame. It will be great for the new Epic and Scarlet owners out there.

I'm in the same boat with these mixed signals concerning the RED ONE future.

There were many statements made in the past that stated plans for the RED ONE camera to have sensor updates past MX as well as firmware updates.


I never thought this would be an issue until there was increasing silence regarding the RED ONE and DRAGON.
Also consider that despite reassurance that the RED ONE would get continued firmware support the last meaningful release was quite a while ago.
RED ONEs still can't monitor RED COLOR 2 or RED GAMMA 2 and now the 3rd version of both was just released.

The notion of a the RED ONE as a collectors piece is a bit of an odd joke. I suppose if one has multiple Epics around that could be an amusing luxury
but the RED ONE is not only a very viable piece of hardware it's still the primary tool some people shoot their work with.

I can't speak for all RED ONE owners but these are my personal gripes about this situation.
Hell, I would be willing to pay for a 4K sensor that just gives better dynamic range and meaningfully higher frame rates.
I think people want to make sure their investment stays relatively current and are willing to pay to do so.

The "Obsolescence Obsolete" was the idea that truly inspired me to make a long term investment in this relatively unknown company 5 years ago.
This was with the understanding that I could gradually pay for improvements to the camera as they became available particularly in sensor tech.

It's obvious that RED is real, very known, and doing some incredible things for the filmmaking and technology in general.
Has anyone even created a 6K digital cinema camera before?

Unfortunately, there are a few areas like the promise of continued RED ONE support that are starting to come up short.

However this goes, I don't regret my investment in this company.

Instead of highjacking the DRAGON thread, RED users who want to voice their opinions on this issue might try this recent thread.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?76780-R1-MX-Upgrade-to-Dragon/page4

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA
 
Pascal Payant said:
I think at this point resolution 5k is way enough. they need to be the best at low light and other area. resolution is not everything
they need amazing low light cause sony and canon are the king now. they need to put slow motion at 4k at least for the scarlet
Click to expand...

Hi Pascal, my understanding is that RED cameras are designed for Cinematic Features and other High Production Value materials.

A single Arri HMI Fresnel costs about the same as Two(2) Scarlet-X brains. Both the Scarlet and Epic are a steal at their respective price-points, especially when lighting costs are considered.

IMO no image acquisition system, regardless of "low light ability", will undo the need for a carefully lit set... and I dare ask why should it?


In terms of slow-mo for scarlet, I suggest becoming familiar w/ Twixtor or other optical pass motion estimation systems

OR (as has been said time and time again)

Rent an Epic!
 
Brian Timmons said:
First, congratulations to RED for pulling off those specs with the RED DRAGON.
I never expected 6K at this time frame. It will be great for the new Epic and Scarlet owners out there.

I'm in the same boat with these mixed signals concerning the RED ONE future.

There were many statements made in the past that stated plans for the RED ONE camera to have sensor updates past MX as well as firmware updates.


I never thought this would be an issue until there was increasing silence regarding the RED ONE and DRAGON.
Also consider that despite reassurance that the RED ONE would get continued firmware support the last meaningful release was quite a while ago.
RED ONEs still can't monitor RED COLOR 2 or RED GAMMA 2 and now the 3rd version of both was just released.

The notion of a the RED ONE as a collectors piece is a bit of an odd joke. I suppose if one has multiple Epics around that could be an amusing option
but this is not only a very viable piece of hardware it's still the primary tool some people shoot their work with.

I can't speak for all RED ONE owners but these are my personal gripes about this situation.
Hell, I would be willing to pay for a 4K sensor that just gives better dynamic range and meaningfully higher frame rates.
I think people want to make sure their investment stays relatively current and are willing to pay to do so.

The "Obsolescence Obsolete" was the idea that truly inspired me to make a long term investment in this relatively unknown company 5 years ago.
This was with the understanding that I could gradually pay for improvements to the camera as they became available particularly in sensor tech.

It's obvious that RED is real, very known, and doing some incredible things for the filmmaking and technology in general.
Has anyone even created a 6K digital cinema camera before?

Unfortunately, there are a few areas like the promise of continued RED ONE support that are starting to come up short.

However this goes, I don't regret my investment in this company.

Instead of highjacking the DRAGON thread, RED users who want to voice their opinions on this issue might try this recent thread.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?76780-R1-MX-Upgrade-to-Dragon/page4

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA
Click to expand...

I don`t think there ever was any "statements made in the past that stated plans for the RED ONE camera to have sensor updates past MX"

When it was said that people would be sorry to sell their RED Ones, it was in a context that configured selling their cameras as "Bas Attitude". Because the stages program ( i don`t remember wich program i was) stated that you should "KEEP" your RED One. People where getting cheaper EPICs packages ($28.000 for a hole package) and selling their RED Ones for mores them $17.500 (if MX sensored bodyes). If I undertand correctly, to RED those people where getting an unfair advantage, as this stage was designed for people that wanted to keep their RED Ones for sentimental values. If the statement that people would be sorry did imply anything, was that those who did it would get some sort of punishment.

of course I may be totally wrong.
 
Rodrigo Prata said:
I don`t think there ever was any "statements made in the past that stated plans for the RED ONE camera to have sensor updates past MX"

When it was said that people would be sorry to sell their RED Ones, it was in a context that configured selling their cameras as "Bas Attitude". Because the stages program ( i don`t remember wich program i was) stated that you should "KEEP" your RED One. People where getting cheaper EPICs packages ($28.000 for a hole package) and selling their RED Ones for mores them $17.500 (if MX sensored bodyes). If I undertand correctly, to RED those people where getting an unfair advantage, as this stage was designed for people that wanted to keep their RED Ones for sentimental values. If the statement that people would be sorry did imply anything, was that those who did it would get some sort of punishment.

of course I may be totally wrong.
Click to expand...

Hello Rodrigo,

I understand your point though that statement wasn't quite what I was referring to.
It would probably be best to read and reply in this thread concerning what I wrote.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?76780-R1-MX-Upgrade-to-Dragon/page3

No intent to start a controversy (enought of those). I do however think this issue should be up for discussion.

Thanks for the feedback Anne Maree.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA
 
Not exactly so. DCI standards for digital delivery of a 1.85 film actually has a pixel aspect ratio of 1.89:1. This makes the Epic's native sensor perfectly suited to that DCI standard. Cropping for a 1.78:1 (16x9) tv broadcast like a commercial, represents a very slight crop of the sides, while cropping for a sperical 2.40:1 composition retains the sides, but requires a much bigger vertical crop.


Tom Gleeson said:
[COLOR=#FFFFFF !important]

I think you will have less trouble with lens coverage than you imagine. The Dragon sensor is natively 1:1.9 and this is not a deliverable format. You will be cropping the sides to deliver 16/9 TV or 1:1.85 for cinema and cropping vertically for spherical 1:2.40
15.8 x28mm. 1:1.78
15.8 x 29.3mm 1:1.85
12.5 x 30mm. 1:2.40

Sorry working out the image circle size is beyond my mathematical ability.

It's strange that the sensitivity of the Dragon chip has not been announced and I assume this has yet to be locked down. But at 800asa we are already struggling with EXT light levels. In TVC world shallow depth is generally preffered and we are forced to use huge amounts of ND that can degrade the image. I can't even purchase a set of the Schneider Platinum NDs as they have been so hard to manufacture to the required quality at such strong light attenuations.

As much as I applaud a faster chip OMG how do you ND a 1600asa or faster chip in Australian midday light? Red please accelerate the ND OPLF idea that was discussed so many months ago or we are going to need ND21 or ND 24 filters!
[/COLOR]
Click to expand...
 
Brian Timmons said:
Hello Rodrigo,

I understand your point though that statement wasn't quite what I was referring to.
It would probably be best to read and reply in this thread concerning what I wrote.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?76780-R1-MX-Upgrade-to-Dragon/page3



No intent to start a controversy (enought of those). I do however think this issue should be up for discussion.

Thanks for the feedback Anne Maree.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA
Click to expand...

Hi Brian,

I hadn`t see those posts from Jim, but after reading it I still mantain my belief that it is clear that there will never be an sensor upgrade to Dragon for the RED One.

This post:

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread...d-with-Monstro&p=322068&viewfull=1#post322068

Is 3,5 years old and things have chaged a lot since them. I think that the upgrade path to Dragon for the RED One has become the EPIC upgrade and them the Dragon upgrade.

Nevertheless, Jim has stated on last year`s NAB that there would be no new upgrade for the RED One and he has stated this again yesterday.

My best wishes!

Rodrigo Prata
 
After months of stressful deliberation I bought a Red Epic instead of an Alexa. I love the feeling when you realize you picked the right horse!
 
Tom Gleeson said:

I think you will have less trouble with lens coverage than you imagine. The Dragon sensor is natively 1:1.9 and this is not a deliverable format. You will be cropping the sides to deliver 16/9 TV or 1:1.85 for cinema and cropping vertically for spherical 1:2.40
15.8 x28mm. 1:1.78
15.8 x 29.3mm 1:1.85
12.5 x 30mm. 1:2.40
Click to expand...

Not to dispute what you're saying, because I don't know myself, but can anyone confirm this? This is pretty important for me.
 
No matter what the format is of our new sensor,.. you have to work inside of it.

Jim

Mike Halper said:
Not to dispute what you're saying, because I don't know myself, but can anyone confirm this? This is pretty important for me.
Click to expand...
 
Emin Ibrahimov said:
Red vs the rest is like Mac vs PC. Jim you are the next Steve Jobs :)
Click to expand...

You are soooo wrong! Macs have a superior operating system running on sub-par second rate hardware, priced as though it's the top tier. Hence their stunning profitability. Red is both the best OS AND the top tier hardware priced below the second rate crap! A vastly better model that doesn't insult the intelligence of the user!
 
Must be a happy day for EPIC owners. It's like getting a new EPIC for $6K. The Mysterium on my Scarlet hasn't even warmed up yet, but I'm glad I can move on when I'm ready.
 
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