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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon with no OLPF

Lakis Amarantithis

Lakis Amarantithis

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Can someone maybe from Red take some shots at night in various situations with some nice fast lenses without the olpf and post some r3d's here?

Thanks!
 
Yeah, I like that too. Might just be crazy enough to try it... Will that effect the warranty?
 
my dp just made a pinhole lens out of a beer can, shoot rugged brah
 
You won't see the clean image you're hoping for (like a V1 olpf) with a V2 calibrated cam and the OLPF removed - there's calibration to consider, and I imagine Red will be providing for that in firmware once alternate OLPFs hit the street.

Best case your ISO will be lying to you, but even then I believe the per-channel calibrations are different too.

For clarity - a lens cap shot on V1 is cleaner than on V2. Clearly that has nothing to do with optics, and everything to do with how the camera is calibrated to work in conjunction with its optics.
 
How do you know? Until you've tried it, it sounds like a guess.

John Marchant said:
You won't see the clean image you're hoping for (like a V1 olpf) with a V2 calibrated cam and the OLPF removed - there's calibration to consider
Click to expand...
 
I have seen footage with the Epic someone posted here with no OLPF and (for the kind of that particular shot - poor families in far East dumps) looked awesome to me. Extremely sharp also!
I experiment with the Epic and no OLPF and it's awesome for particular shots only.

I think Dragon will have some commonalities with the Epic on that.

I don't mind the ISO lying, the monitor says everything to me.

I hope the great people in Red are working hard to make these OLPF's availabe Fast!

They will make a huge difference.

I wish they could put them in the Motion Mount or do something else so we could change them on the fly.

Maybe they can do that and then we all have to gladly send the Dragons back for The modification?...
 
So you have done tests with the OLPF removed John?

John Marchant said:
Definitely not a guess hehe. Appreciate that for many it would be of course :) The lens cap test is the proof though, even if it were a guess.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a guess...

Jason Diamond said:
I wouldn't doubt John's comments, he definitely knows what he's talking about. :)
Click to expand...

Understood, it's not a guess then... So can you share what test you did with the OLPF removed?

John Marchant said:
Definitely not a guess hehe.
Click to expand...

Prove it.
 
Will, what are you hoping to gain ?
BTW, shooting without low pass and using current Red processing is not going to make an optimal picture. It was not made for that.
 
For the people whose OLPFs were installed upside down, RED let them flip it with a kit if I remember correctly without returning it to RED. I imagine some people took that opportunity to take it off without voiding warranty to shoot some footage. ;)
 
Hoping to gain another stop or so of light in the lows.

OLPF's are like sunglasses, the new OLPF is just a heavier shady. So so brightness goes up when you take em all off? Ya.
Les Dittert said:
Will, what are you hoping to gain ?
BTW, shooting without low pass and using current Red processing is not going to make an optimal picture. It was not made for that.
Click to expand...
 
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Will Keir said:
Hoping to gain another stop or so of light in the lows.

OLPF's are like sunglasses, the new OLPF is just a heavier shady. So so brightness goes up when you take em all off? Ya.
Click to expand...

No. OLPFs are like very very weak diffusion filters and an IR hot mirror plus a slight color filter. The actual loss of light is probably pretty small. Most of the light loss is in the OLPF color filters. At best you'll probably get 1/4 of a stop without an OLPF. The biggest difference is shaprness, you trade off resolution for aliasing and possible moire. You would also have substantially more IR sensitivity and would have to use a hot mirror in front of the lens (and lose at least 1/4 of a stop anyway) and the debayer color science would be off since it would be purely neutral.

The new OLPF added extra red filtration to cut out near IR flaring. Without it the red channel would be cleaner since it would be less underexposed but it will be too bright unless RED changes your color science to not apply the corrective digital gain.
 
Some example OLPF / sensor filters from my stash. You can see more easily like this how the filters are more complex than just an ND. You can also see how the later Dragon OLPF cuts a lot of red light.

glass.jpg
 
Whoa, that is a pretty intense red cut. I would have expected it to be closer to the MX sensor or even less for the V1 since they were starting from a fresh sensor design.
 
John Marchant said:
Some example OLPF / sensor filters from my stash. You can see more easily like this how the filters are more complex than just an ND. You can also see how the later Dragon OLPF cuts a lot of red light.

glass.jpg
Click to expand...

That was an interesting lineup.

THX
 
Gavin. I thought your views on 4k were enlightening and appreciate your challenge of Michael Cioni's post for the Expendables 4k workflow.

Now how do you come up with the number 1/4 of a stop of light from the New OLPF to none? A guess?

The New OLPF is less sensitive in lowlight than the old. Has anyone actually measured the difference? It's dramatic enough for RED to consider the old OLPF to be the "lowlight" option in their modular OLPF design. I'm just looking for some numbers here man, it seems obvious the image will suffer. Diffusion filters lower measured light levels correct? So do sunglasses.

Gavin Greenwalt said:
No. OLPFs are like very very weak diffusion filters and an IR hot mirror plus a slight color filter. The actual loss of light is probably pretty small. Most of the light loss is in the OLPF color filters. At best you'll probably get 1/4 of a stop without an OLPF. The biggest difference is shaprness, you trade off resolution for aliasing and possible moire. You would also have substantially more IR sensitivity and would have to use a hot mirror in front of the lens (and lose at least 1/4 of a stop anyway) and the debayer color science would be off since it would be purely neutral.

The new OLPF added extra red filtration to cut out near IR flaring. Without it the red channel would be cleaner since it would be less underexposed but it will be too bright unless RED changes your color science to not apply the corrective digital gain.
Click to expand...
 
Looks like four difference pairs of sunglasses, with one missing. Why don't we add the Dragon V2 filter as a Mattebox filter? It's like having another filter on the mattebox except this one get's a little more personal.

I've never seen the OLPF lineup, thank you sincerely for taking the time to share this.

John Marchant said:
Some example OLPF / sensor filters from my stash. You can see more easily like this how the filters are more complex than just an ND. You can also see how the later Dragon OLPF cuts a lot of red light.

glass.jpg
Click to expand...
 
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