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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon vs MX rate increase

roryhinds

roryhinds

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Just wondering what owners are doing to compensate for the $10k dragon upgrade and how much they are upping their rental rates to recoup the investment.

With more dragons out there and the exclusivity wearing off can raised rates continue or will clients push for lower rates making the owner swallow the upgrade cost?
 
Hm...

Isn't rates often calculated as a % of price of purche + demandadvantage +/- service & package-flexibility - oversupply - rebates? :)
 
I think getting a producer to pay more for a Dragon is gonna be a tough sell on the smaller shows since most of the value added is in favor of the DP and not the producer. When the Red One MX came out that had value added for both the DP and the producer in terms of savings on the light package and set up times (to some extent). The difference between the Red One and the MX was night and day and even then you didn't see rates go up too much. In my opinion the difference between epic and dragon isn't that great in terms of what is practical and "useful/useable" (at least in the 2014 market). If the rates do go up I think the first question the producers are gonna ask is "Why can't we just use an Epic?".
 
that's kind of what I'm thinking too so it does make me wonder who is going to be paying for the Dragon.
 
In LA they are pretty much the same as MX at the early days. Prices will soon come down since Dragons are becoming more plentiful. Even though Dragon is better now, people will not pay Alexa rental rates to rent Dragon unfortunately.
 
roryhinds said:
that's kind of what I'm thinking too so it does make me wonder who is going to be paying for the Dragon.
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Two groups of people. First, people who want the best, because DRAGON > EPIC. Second, people who have to compete for rental business. When your market becomes DRAGON-rich, you will find that most people will want to rent DRAGON, especially when it costs the same as EPIC (which is true in many markets today). You can save your $10K and be the last guy people rent from, or you can pay your $10K to become competitive with the first guy people rent from. And remember, the cost of a new DRAGON is about what a new EPIC used to cost, so mathematically it's not wrong to see DRAGON renting at the same price point as EPIC. It's the EPIC guys who will have to discount, not the DRAGON folk who can charge a premium. (Unless they have a Carbon DRAGON, in which case you know it costs more and presumably you really, really, really need to lose that one pound of material to make your rig work.)
 
I think owner/operators are going to eat the cost of the Dragon to "Keep up with the Jones" and the rates on Epics will get pushed down. Producers will just say "Well for that price I could get a Dragon".
 
But honestly...

The Epic is paid back. In my case I think I gave 19000 for it, and then + 9500. That would work out in the ballpark of 700$/day for the body only for a 3-4 day week (depending on local market.)

Many will probably land on "not having to buy a new cam" and keeping their rates flat.

Third logic is to compare to new Dragon-M Or new CF Dragon.
To me the 20k$ I save through the upgrade to stay competitive, are more important than the 9,5k I use.

In the end, what I am most curious about is the MX vs Dragon ratio in my market. If it is MX heavy, Dragon can have a premium. If it is Dragon-heavy, MX prices will go down and Dragon will take that spot.

It's not really rocket-science?

Or am I missing a point?

Many have paid their MX many times around, and service is usually included....

The cool thing is that all your other kit remains as valuable as they used to be, because you do not need to buy into a new system...
 
Matt Ryan said:
In LA they are pretty much the same as MX at the early days. Prices will soon come down since Dragons are becoming more plentiful. Even though Dragon is better now, people will not pay Alexa rental rates to rent Dragon unfortunately.
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Why should dragon be the same rate as an alexa? My alexa cost me $140k AUD?
 
Adam Eden said:
Why should dragon be the same rate as an alexa? My alexa cost me $140k AUD?
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Which I think is a point people easily forget when discussing rates...

But it is also interesting to see how fast the F35 or F65 sank.

Price of aquiring is not the only factor.
 
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right its how often does the brand put out the new one, and can rental houses/owner ops make their return in time before the new model is released...thats why i wasn't bummed on dragon delays it just gave me more time to milk my scarlet to epic upgrade.. even if rates are the same for dragon and epic, people will want the new model simply to book it...so I'm sure people with them will do well (mine comes in this week)
 
Tough-Producers are math people (mostly) -- so I would guess they answer:
$10K plus interest and "stuff" divided by two years equals <$20 per day. OK.

;o)
 
I kind of think here in Toronto Canada, owners might be able to charge a premium for a Dragon IF they are willing to get less bookings. Only folks that have a real need for 6K (such as Print, CG graphics, games, etc), will pay for the premium here (and there are some). Got about a year or so before Dragon floods our area, in my opinion.

On the reverse side. Folks with a Dragon that charge the current Epic price are bound to get more bookings then the MX or folks. Again till there's an abundance of supply.

Oddly, I think Scarlet folks will continue to thrive as prices will stay low (about or just above half of the Epic rentals).
 
Adam Eden said:
Why should dragon be the same rate as an alexa? My alexa cost me $140k AUD?
Click to expand...

I didn't say they should... What I said is some people here are listing packages for Alexa prices and I'm saying you will not get any rentals...
 
Wil Wong said:
I kind of think here in Toronto Canada, owners might be able to charge a premium for a Dragon IF they are willing to get less bookings. Only folks that have a real need for 6K (such as Print, CG graphics, games, etc), will pay for the premium here (and there are some). Got about a year or so before Dragon floods our area, in my opinion.

On the reverse side. Folks with a Dragon that charge the current Epic price are bound to get more bookings then the MX or folks. Again till there's an abundance of supply.

Oddly, I think Scarlet folks will continue to thrive as prices will stay low (about or just above half of the Epic rentals).
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Toroto is known as a doco-style town with very little emphasis on high end visuals for most jobs even in advertising- this has always been the case. In other markets the story is completely different. BTW - 6K isn't really the most important thing about Dragon - it's much better dynamic range, better color and MUCH better motion handling. I'm excited about Dragon, but have no use for 6K resolution - I do have use for a larger sensor and wish it recorded lower resolutions because 6K is just a waste of data in my opinion, certainly for 100% of the jobs we do here, but we'll put it with it for improvements in aforementioned areas.

As far as marketing rentals Dragon is "The best image quality in the world" Epic MX was only better on some fronts, worse on others which was much harder to sell than just a simple "the best" - thats' why Dolby can sell monitors for $100 000 even though improvements over the performance of second best that costs $10 000 are only maybe 20% if that - the best in a clear way is really important and worth untold sums to those who seek it out.
 
My camera is a rental only camera so I will tell you guys if the day rates go up or the turn over..I am hoping both does, or even less discounting on the list price is fine too. Like it could be the same list price as MX for all I care, but if they can get away without the discounts being as big, or if it books more often, either will work for me and would make me happy. Heck even if everything stays the same knowing it will continue to book for years to come also works, its not like MX was renting that bad for me the past year or so...
 
Dragon Rates

Dragon Rates

Hi,

We are planning to keep rates of EPIC and DRAGON same....you book according to availability...

Thanks

Harcharan
 
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