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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon upgrades

Weapon trajectory...

Weapon trajectory...

Speculation #1) Under the hood:
RED engineers have reworked the cooling system/removed the 1/8" audio jacks on the front and some other mods to cut weight and create space for new silicon. To get better imagery from the Dragon sensor on the Epic platform it needs more processing muscle than the boards they had to work with at the time Dragon released.

Live UHD/4K RGB output for monitoring, live shows, etc currently requires the $7,000 Broadcast Module which, in addition to the cost, adds weight and length. If this decode and scale can be done inside the brain and fed out of an HDMI 2.0 spigot (plus SDI snake, wireless UHD??? maybe) that would make the Epic a candidate for use cases it otherwise would not be viable for. Not to mention, it's got to be at least a pebble in their shoe that the Sony F55 has a UHD live output and Epic doesn't.

Speculation #2) New body, same sensor:
Perhaps instead of trying to rework the Epic body they decided to build a next generation shell with better cooling metrics per decibel, even lighter in weight, ability to interact with add on modules in more sophisticated ways (and hopefully removing the need for a module adapter). Run enough power to the pins in the lens collar to support lenses like the Fujinon Cabrio without having to have a separate cable. A chance to apply what they learned from the Epic design.

Sticking with the Dragon sensor. Why? How about swappable OLPFs, more sophisticated processing made possible by new silicon, further maturation of the color science and a photo site pitch that allows high resolution acquisition within the coverage area of most S35 targeted optics (5K HD scaled to UHD should look as clean as you could ever need and many lenses can do 6K HD without significant vignetting).

Don't get me wrong, I do think they will always have new sensors in the pipeline and they'll unleash the next one at some point - just prognosticating that NAB 2015 is too soon.

Cheers - #19
 
Cid J Salcido Uyarra said:
Anytime we have a new camera it's always been bigger sensor with more K's

8K TV are around not for purchase but they have prototypes. There's also been 8K camera prototypes.

Everything going 4k this year for consumers Red will double it and stay 2-3 years ahead of the gang.
Click to expand...

Might be but in my opinion I don't think so. Resolution is not everything and I'm sure RED have found ways to squeeze alot more out of the (still pretty new) current Dragon sensor, it "just" needs a new brain/skull. The first RED sensor was the 4K Mysterium in the RED One, then upgrade to the new Mysterium-X (4.5K) still in the R1 body, then new body but using Mysterium-X (this time 5K) and finally Dragon (6K) in the same body as before. So basicly Dragon ist the third generation sensor and Weapon would be the third generation brain, pushing the available sensor to its full potential. But that's just my guess :biggrin:
And 8K would mean even more pixels on the same surface what would not benefit storage, lowlight performance and current editing platforms. Then again, same was the case for 6K, LOL. But still, no hints for higher resolution were given, so I think that we'll stay at 6K for this upgrade.
 
So I've read the thread, and I'm apologize in advance for not being able to share everyone's excitement. I'll keep my "rant" short, and centered around the Dragon upgrade...I don't want to get kicked off here...

In the last year and couple months, I bought a scarlet, saved, and then upgraded to Epic MX. I planned on upgrading to Dragon before the price bump, but just couldn't do it. I figured I'd take the hit (as many did) of $3k and upgrade over the next year or so for the $12k. I knew from previous posts that the upgrade time would definitely end...but not six months after the price bump. I believe I read somewhere that it would end sometime late '15 or early '16. I was setting myself up for my first major production, which I can and will still do, but afterwords I looked to find work around town with my new gear. While I'm sure this will still be possible, I know a lot of customers will be looking for a Dragon or Weapon (now) for their shooting needs. People typically want the latest and best thing...that's what the market typically calls for.

Most of my frustration is on timing and transparency, both of which are considered a luxury and risk in this industry. As Jared has mentioned, he doesn't want to disclose too much in fear of helping the competition. Yet, as a loyal Red owner, Reduser member, and someone who was building their company foundation on the platform of obsolescence bing obsolete, I'm finding myself in a very tough place and potentially being crowded out before I even enter the market. I don't know how to fix this. I don't need and I doubt I'll get sympathy from this community. I also welcome the reduser backlash- as long as I can use it to get a better understanding behind why this is happening (other than the response I've seen already like "it's just business" "they don't have to offer us an upgrade program at all" or "at least their letting us know").

Last, to the gentlemen who keeps advising people to "get over it" and sell your gear third party, that sentiment should be saved for the competitors. But Red, at least for me, is/was on a pedestal, kind go like Apple- even when they do wrong, they can do know wrong (in my book). The whole purpose of me purchasing gear vs. renting was on the premise of investment vs. expensing. I'm starting to regret for former, and wishing I had chosen the latter.

More than anything, I'm frustrated. I had a plan, which doesn't seem to be working out. I know it will be said, so I'll save you the time- that's life...which reminds me of one of my favorite quotes, from a very unlikely source. Mike Tyson said that everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. Well Red, great left hook. I did't see it coming. I'll be feeling this for a couple weeks.
 
Concerning the mags... Honestly thank you Jarred and Red Team. No other company that I know of would give me a heads up about the discontinuation of a product. I was Literally going to buy some new redmags 1.8" this week. With this heads up I know I should go mini mags and sell my 1.8" . This is costumer care. Thank you for doing it this way Jerred and Red Team.

Now let me push a bit more of your generosity: how about a deal on the side mini mag module with the upgrade ? :)
 
My guess is a new body, with XLR inputs, wireless screen, Higher Frame rates (hence Mini Mags), and much lower noise floor (Dragon Sensor gets a major boost)....which also means cleaner exposure at higher ISO's if needed..

OLPFs may be swappable internally?

Most modules still work....
 
similar to Rome Will and it looks like its time to do what i do with iPhones - skip a generation (Dragon in this case) and use my Epic to the fullest and then buy Weapon or whatever will be on the market then
 
@Rome Will: I'm kinda in the same position as you, had exactly the same plan. Bought a used kitted-out RED Scarlet-X, saved a whole year and paid the upgrade to Epic-MX with the goal to upgrade to Epic-Dragon by late 2015. I have invested in RED knowing that I'll be able to work my way up and grow with my gear. Then came the new upgrade price of $12'500 and I was like "ouch, but OK". Now comes the EOL of a camera that I just paid (Epic-X) and there's no way I can afford an Epic-Dragon until June(?), even more so with that $3000 higher pricetag now.

At this point I'm not sure what to do as I haven't sent in my Scarlet for the upgrade yet. Thing is I don't want to have a Scarlet anymore, that's why going Scarlet-Dragon is a dead-end to me. [I would reconsider if there would be a way to upgrade from Scarlet-Dragon to Epic-Weapon tho!]
That said, I fully understand RED. Production lines have to switch over to the new upgrades, MX is old tech and as the RedOne it's time to move on. I'll be working with my new Epic-MX and when needed rent a Dragon or Weapon and eventually buy one. So it's all good, no hard feelings, I'm really excited to see what that Weapon is all about! :thumbsup:
 
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JeanChristophe Dupasquier said:
@Rome Will: I'm kinda in the same position as you, had exactly the same plan. Bought a used kitted-out RED Scarlet-X, saved a whole year and paid the upgrade to Epic-MX with the goal to upgrade to Epic-Dragon by late 2015. I have invested in RED knowing that I'll be able to work my way up and grow with my gear. Then came the new upgrade price of $12'500 and I was like "ouch, but OK". Now comes the EOL of a camera that I just paid (Epic-X) and there's no way I can afford an Epic-Dragon until June(?), even more so with that $3000 higher pricetag now.

At this point I'm not sure what to do as I haven't sent in my Scarlet for the upgrade yet. Thing is I don't want to have a Scarlet anymore, that's why going Scarlet-Dragon is a dead-end to me. [I would reconsider if there would be a way to upgrade from Scarlet-Dragon to Epic-Weapon tho!]
That said, I fully understand RED. Production lines have to switch over to the new upgrades, MX is old tech and as the RedOne it's time to move on. I'll be working with my new Epic-MX and when needed rent a Dragon or Weapon end eventually buy one. So it's all good, no hard feelings, I'm really excited to see what that Weapon is all about! :thumbsup:
Click to expand...
My hope is that RED will sell the recovered Dragons (if in fact there is a trade-in... I don't think that has been confirmed yet) as Battle Tested and you will be able to buy a Dragon Brain for the same (or less) money an upgrade will cost at the end of 2015.
 
An earlier post asked if the Weapon upgrade will also require a Rocket X card replacement/upgrade, but I didn't see a response so if anyone knows I would be interested to hear. I'm assuming the Rocket X is here to stay for a while though, and it sure kicks ass over the older Red Rocket card.
 
And have to say I am a sucker for Jim and Jarred teaser posts like this. Keep the criptic messages coming!

Right now What I got from the pictures and posts is this:

1- red Dragon upgradeable and gets a very good deal
2- mini mags the way forward
3- new modules- new redvolt XL and new lens mount , at least

Speculation:

1- red mini mags the new standard due to faster and better redcode? Also new body form factor ?
2- "your old mount will work for s35 and full frame lenses"- so does this mean capabilities for bigger sensor lenses? Bigger sensor?

What else? This is really exciting!

By the way, as a Bruce Lee fan and someone that thinks Dragon is the best camera name ever to grace film cameras, I refuse to drop this name from my Red. So my upgraded Camera will be named Red Dragon Weapon "Lilau." Long but carries that mythological gravitas of all great names!
 
If it renders all the accessories unusable, that would mean the entire line of DSMC equipment will be useless in some ways. I for one hope that while the camera is in a new form it won't kill the base of equipment that we have built up. Because if it's like that then I think that Red need to rethink this whole modularity thing and make a camera that has it all instead of forcing us to sell everything just to be able to get an upgrade.

If we can't use our equipment with Weapon, then I think that Red need to have a trade-in for all the accessory equipment we bought together with the camera. I also don't care for a new battery system.
The V-locks are the industry standard and it opens up options, not closing everything down to Red battery options only.

The thing here is that many are "forced" to upgrade to Dragon to be able to get something that we don't know a thing about. And yes we ARE forced because we are on a market where people demand the latest. I've not been able to get my MX rented out because there isn't a market for that if people can get the Dragon. If I get the Dragon and everyone want Weapon, then I must upgrade again. If Weapon is an upgrade that renders my accessories unusable but still has the market demand, then it's not "just an upgrade" that we get a discount for, it's going to cost us a fortune to rebuild our entire line of equipment because of it...

I feel that we who look to upgrade to Dragon now need to know what we are in for, because if we pay for the Dragon upgrade and Weapon isn't something that we really can use, because of our other equipment, then we have been forced to do something that we really planned to invest in up further up ahead and even that option will be closed off. Even for those who already owns a Dragon, they might not have the finance to rebuild their entire line of equipment because of the Dragon upgrade cost.

We do really need to know what equipment we can use after Weapon is released. We can't just jump onto something and then realize that our equipment worth the same amount as the camera brain itself will be useless.

We need to know what we can expect of our investments. I think it's quite unfair to say that we need to do something and pay something before a date because when that date arrives we will know why we did it. If we didn't know this date, that would have meant that when Weapon is shown, they would say at the same time: "...and also, anyone with an MX, you're kinda screwed". I'm glad we have a heads up, but heads up to what?

I'm not even speaking of any new features or what Weapon really is, I'm looking for an answer to what will happen with our investments other than the brain itself. Placing your loyal MX customers in this position is kinda harsh. Many of us do not have a fortune to spend and you want us to spend it to be able to get something that might need us to spend more than just for the upgrade just to get it to work.


The final question then becomes: Will we need to pay for the upgrade alone or do we need to replace and buy new gear for the Weapon upgrade to work? I think it's fair that we get a yes or no to that question. We don't need the details, we just need to know if we are safe with what we have or not (except the mentioned mini SSD module demand).

You don't want to feed the competition... but you wouldn't give them anything by answering these questions. You would only be giving us who bought your camera a better chance of understanding the path ahead.
 
My thinking is if they do revert to something similar to the thinner R-1, they will put an Epic-module friendly mount on the back to handle all current modules.
 
Rome Will said:
So I've read the thread, and I'm apologize in advance for not being able to share everyone's excitement. I'll keep my "rant" short, and centered around the Dragon upgrade...I don't want to get kicked off here...

In the last year and couple months, I bought a scarlet, saved, and then upgraded to Epic MX. I planned on upgrading to Dragon before the price bump, but just couldn't do it. I figured I'd take the hit (as many did) of $3k and upgrade over the next year or so for the $12k. I knew from previous posts that the upgrade time would definitely end...but not six months after the price bump. I believe I read somewhere that it would end sometime late '15 or early '16. I was setting myself up for my first major production, which I can and will still do, but afterwords I looked to find work around town with my new gear. While I'm sure this will still be possible, I know a lot of customers will be looking for a Dragon or Weapon (now) for their shooting needs. People typically want the latest and best thing...that's what the market typically calls for.

Most of my frustration is on timing and transparency, both of which are considered a luxury and risk in this industry. As Jared has mentioned, he doesn't want to disclose too much in fear of helping the competition. Yet, as a loyal Red owner, Reduser member, and someone who was building their company foundation on the platform of obsolescence bing obsolete, I'm finding myself in a very tough place and potentially being crowded out before I even enter the market. I don't know how to fix this. I don't need and I doubt I'll get sympathy from this community. I also welcome the reduser backlash- as long as I can use it to get a better understanding behind why this is happening (other than the response I've seen already like "it's just business" "they don't have to offer us an upgrade program at all" or "at least their letting us know").

Last, to the gentlemen who keeps advising people to "get over it" and sell your gear third party, that sentiment should be saved for the competitors. But Red, at least for me, is/was on a pedestal, kind go like Apple- even when they do wrong, they can do know wrong (in my book). The whole purpose of me purchasing gear vs. renting was on the premise of investment vs. expensing. I'm starting to regret for former, and wishing I had chosen the latter.

More than anything, I'm frustrated. I had a plan, which doesn't seem to be working out. I know it will be said, so I'll save you the time- that's life...which reminds me of one of my favorite quotes, from a very unlikely source. Mike Tyson said that everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. Well Red, great left hook. I did't see it coming. I'll be feeling this for a couple weeks.
Click to expand...

My heart goes out to you, and I realize you are not looking for sympathy. However, there are many of us in similar situations, and I can completely empathize with what you are stating. I'm not sure of the solution either, but I have found that networking with other filmmakers tends to soften the blow, but owner/ops definitely have a weighty responsibility to devise methods to keep their gear working, and hence profitable.

Do you have a proposal that might help mitigate the blow to your specific situation? Cogent suggestions are noticed by RED's leadership; in my experience, they tend to be as fiercely loyal to us, as we can be to them. So don't be afraid to devise a solution and ask. Unfortunately, there is no roadmap, but I do think we can plot courses leading to progress. Link with others in your area/community to pursue innovative approaches. There are whole new markets opening due to the glut of high end cinema gear in the marketplace. If I can be of service, I am certainly willing to assist in any way I could.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
The thing here is that many are "forced" to upgrade to Dragon to be able to get something that we don't know a thing about. And yes we ARE forced because we are on a market where people demand the latest. I've not been able to get my MX rented out because there isn't a market for that if people can get the Dragon. If I get the Dragon and everyone want Weapon, then I must upgrade again. If Weapon is an upgrade that renders my accessories unusable but still has the market demand, then it's not "just an upgrade" that we get a discount for, it's going to cost us a fortune to rebuild our entire line of equipment because of it...
Click to expand...

You aren't being forced into anything blind. Jarred is just teasing the new technology. Something I'm sure the "adult supervision" would prefer to have waited until NAB 2015 (April) to do.

However, by April we will all know what Weapon is all about. Who knows. Maybe sooner.

This "tease" is actually Jarred's way of telling everybody "heads up, something is coming, here's how you should prepare yourself if this applies to you".

Variables unknown (though likely for not much longer as somebody is currently a bit chatty):

- What exactly the Weapon "is"
- What it will cost?

What we do know?
- Weapon is an upgrade path for Dragon owners.
- It's likely starting summer 2015
- NAB 2015 will be the official "reveal"


Also, if you think those are speakers on the front you're nuts. Red isn't making boom boxes dudes and dudettes.
 
I would caution everyone to stay calm and not freak out just yet. There is far more we don't know about Weapon...its capabilities, it's configuration, its cost, it's availability. Jarred is doing us all a huge favor giving us a 6 week early peek behind the NAB curtain, and certain valuable pieces of information. I'm sure more details will emerge and we can all figure out how this all fits into our own individual realities.

I am one of the lucky ones who was able to take full advantage of the upgrade path from Scarlet to Epic MX to Dragon, and I'm very grateful to RDC for the opportunity. It was a difficult financial climb and I'm not all that excited about having to dig deep for more upgrade $$$. But I keep reminding myself that the other guys (ARRI, Canon, Sony, etc.) would just bring out their new model and flip me the middle finger if I complained. Thanks, RDC for treating us like family!
 
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Phil Holland said:
Also, if you think those are speakers on the front you're nuts. Red isn't making boom boxes dudes and dudettes.
Click to expand...

Gah, I really wanted to replace my current bluetooth speaker. I thought I was going to be able to kill two birds with one weapon ... errrm rock.

Man these next 50 days better go quick.
 
Well i'm not worried at all about this, if a body upgrade is announced in nab 2015, people on the short with epic-m/carbon/etc list might get it in 2016, and people like me that are in the long list will probably get it in 2017. I will for sure upgrade to it, what ever it is, but if i have not made money on my dragon all the way through 2016 I'm in a heap more financial problems then then few K i will save on the upgrade path (which btw is very appreciated).

If anything my big mental debate is moving to the mini-mags. I didn't do that on my dragon, probably should have, and with RED "hinting" that that is a smart thing to do ... kind of puts some questions in. Aside from my dragon, which is just a few months old, I have a old scarlet and another epic which don't make financial sense for me to move to a dragon - would be nice for me if there was a "trade" in coupon, since i can see red's point that upgrading old equipment just isn't cost effective.
 
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