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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon uncaged...

Hans von Sonntag said:
I kindly disagree.


Red's raw approach has the advantage to give their user-base a variety of colour interpretation possibilities such as RC1 - RC3 or CameraRGB which unfortunately is gone in RCX but still lives in many SDKs in 3rd party applications such as Resolve or Smoke. I mostly choose CameraRGB because it's closer to that what I get from Arri's Alexa and in IMHO more pleasant to my eye than RedColour3 or much worse RedColour2 and it's bad red channel. RedSpace was also an interesting Colour Science that leads to nice skin tones.
Click to expand...

Why has Camera RGB been removed from RCX? Surely more options is a good thing?
It seems strange to me.


Personally I would love to have a colour science that is closer to film. Everyone who has tried Filmconvert as suggsted by Gavin will be strived by the uniqueness of the looks that come from LUTs which mimic different filmstocks quite well. And yes, any good colourist can copy that. But not from scratch and not with an example to follow. Modifying the matrix in a way that the resulting LUT looks in all shots like eg. 5298 is not a thing of minutes but a work of hours if not days.

The beauty of film was not the perfect copy of the colours you see in reality but their pleasing interpretation. I would love to see RedFilm isn the next colour science release.

Hans
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But of course, as you imply, film doesn't have just one look!

Freya
 
Andy,

When I say pre-visualization, I mean on-set monitoring, or during editing. And yes, I use RedColor2/3, but only in conjunction with RLF for color grading so I can start with a 100% Cineon like image. Otherwise, the RG3/RC3 scenario limits the grading options A LOT...!

BTW: Pardon my the typo. :blush5:
 
And just so you know... I wasn't debating your thought... I really want to understand the BEST workflow. But as you said earlier, we should probably drop this thread and get back on track.

It is now Saturday in Australia...
 
António Fagundes said:
... Gatsby does not look like Romeo and Juliet and thank God for that. It looks way better!
Click to expand...

+ 4K

Just to be realistic and more precise when we are discussing this topic (which we should stop now and go back to Dragon): Can we stop using the term "FILMIC" and start calling it "CINEMATIC"? I agree 100% with Antonio's perspective. I am trying to get cinematic images with my Epic-X because I love the clean look. If I would want to acquire filmic images, I will shoot using film (which I do not want to because as of now, it is inferior in DR and resolution).
 
António Fagundes said:
Red looks nothing like film, and thank god for that! Red and Alexa look much much better than film, I personally prefer Red's image, but trying to compare a modern digital image with film is very backwards. Digital looks like digital, film looks like film, full stop. To try and make a digital image look like film with a lut just shows how backwards, uncreative and intimidated by letting go of the past one really is.

Again, Gatsby does not look like Romeo and Juliet and thank God for that. It looks way better!
Click to expand...

Luis Otero said:
+ 4K

Just to be realistic and more precise when we are discussing this topic (which we should stop now and go back to Dragon): Can we stop using the term "FILMIC" and start calling it "CINEMATIC"? I agree 100% with Antonio's perspective. I am trying to get cinematic images with my Epic-X because I love the clean look. If I would want to acquire filmic images, I will shoot using film (which I do not want to because as of now, it is inferior in DR and resolution).
Click to expand...

IMO, Well said, on both accounts.
 
Freya said:
Why has Camera RGB been removed from RCX?...
Click to expand...


Graeme explained the why somewhere in the forum. I do not know exactly where and all the why's. But in general, it renders inferior images than the ones attained using current RC/RG algorithms, if I recall correctly the rationale.

Graeme, correct me if I misinterpret your explanation.
 
Antonio,

I agree with all your points. You nailed it so well ! However, the use of LUT is to facilitate the grading by providing known color characteristics.

For example, I really think that the best emulation software (from the colorimetric perspective) is FilmConvert. I always bring the grain slide to "0" because I do not like grain. Actually, I really dislike it and find it so distracting.

I only use grain when I receive non-cinematic footage, with a lot of noise, pixelation, etc. It is then, and only then, when I use it to mask the errors, being from poor lighting, or codec/transcoding artifacts.


Just my humbled perspective.


BTW: FilmConvert will support Resolve via OFX, since that is one of the new additions to the V10 release.
 
Luis Otero said:
Graeme explained the why somewhere in the forum. I do not know exactly where and all the why's. But in general, it renders inferior images than the ones attained using current RC/RG algorithms, if I recall correctly the rationale.

Graeme, correct me if I misinterpret your explanation.
Click to expand...

But if we are saying that CameraRGB results in a different look then surely that is a good thing?
Maybe you might want the inferior look for something?
More looks and more choices seems like a good thing to me.

Freya
 
I which I could have the authority to make those decision like that, but that is not reality. However, I trust that such elimination was made for a good reason. I do not have the details of the rationale.
 
Hopefully I won't sound like a jerk but.... how can any one "professional" make an absurd statement about a photo, taken from a photo, that is posted on the net for God sake and ogle over it. Please people, get it together; you are all sounding like kids looking through the pictures in the Sears catalog at Christmas time in the 1950's!
The photo of the photo looks like what it is, trash! If any of you think that photo is great you're not a DP of any sorts.
cheers
 
Hopefully I won't sound like a jerk but.... how can any one "professional" make an absurd statement about a photo, taken from a photo, that is posted on the net for God sake and ogle of it. Please people, get it together; you are all sounding like kids looking through the pictures in the Sears catalog at Christmas time in the 1950's!
The photo of the photo looks like what it is, trash! If any of you think that photo is great you're not a DP of any sorts.
cheers

 
Tom Gray said:
Hopefully I won't sound like a jerk but.... how can any one "professional" make an absurd statement about a photo, taken from a photo, that is posted on the net for God sake and ogle of it. Please people, get it together; you are all sounding like kids looking through the pictures in the Sears catalog at Christmas time in the 1950's!
The photo of the photo looks like what it is, trash! If any of you think that photo is great you're not a DP of any sorts.
cheers
Click to expand...

Sorry to dash your hopes, but you indeed do sound like a total jerk. Arrogant too.
 
I'm not a mod or anything, but...

These are the wrong kinds of threads to be pissing on one and other. Its bad form. These are highly viewed threads (almost 60,00 views) people check frequently for real information not bickering. Taking a step back can be a good thing.

Maybe agree to disagree and delete a few posts. I'll delete this one if a few others are deleted as well.

Just sayin'

david
 
Freya said:
But if we are saying that CameraRGB results in a different look then surely that is a good thing?
Maybe you might want the inferior look for something?
More looks and more choices seems like a good thing to me.

Freya
Click to expand...

The good news is that CameraRGB still lives in Red's SDK. You have access to it in Resolve, Smoke, and probably elsewhere.

----

Red's striving for the "best" colour interpretation is good. On this journey different colour science approaches have been developed. There were really bad ones and interesting ones such as RedSpace and Camera RGB. The new breed RedColor 1 -3 try to match reality closest. Out of the box RC 1 seems to be over saturated, RC2 is hardly usable because it has a very weak red channel and RC3 seems to meet the goal closest.

However, reality is not for every one the target. There are many who look for the most pleasing skin tones. Here CameraRGB is a very nice starting point for me. Others may find RC3 the best colour interpretation formula. Choices are good but I don't understand why RC2 has a seat in RCX but CameraRGB or RedSpace not.

Hans
 
Freya said:
But if we are saying that CameraRGB results in a different look then surely that is a good thing?
Maybe you might want the inferior look for something?
More looks and more choices seems like a good thing to me.

Freya
Click to expand...


Hans von Sonntag said:
The good news is that CameraRGB still lives in Red's SDK. You have access to it in Resolve, Smoke, and probably elsewhere.

----

Red's striving for the "best" colour interpretation is good. On this journey different colour science approaches have been developed. There were really bad ones and interesting ones such as RedSpace and Camera RGB. The new breed RedColor 1 -3 try to match reality closest. Out of the box RC 1 seems to be over saturated, RC2 is hardly usable because it has a very weak red channel and RC3 seems to meet the goal closest.

However, reality is not for every one the target. There are many who look for the most pleasing skin tones. Here CameraRGB is a very nice starting point for me. Others may find RC3 the best colour interpretation formula. Choices are good but I don't understand why RC2 has a seat in RCX but CameraRGB or RedSpace not.

Hans
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In Redcine-X, go to Preferences, choose General, and select "Show advanced controls". CameraRGB, as well as many other legacy choices, should show up in the Color Space and Gamma Space drop-down menus.
 
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David is correct. I was about to take Tom Gray on but maturity and professionalism are obviously the better way. I also read CML posts and I have to say that the signal to noise ratio is better there..

I'm passionate and excited about Dragon, and as a pro DP I can clearly see a lot of evidence in the Dragon shot of the white car that points to a very important sensor we're all about to enjoy, but I don't squeal about it here.

A slightly more professional dialogue and less fanboy ass kissing would go a long way here I think.

But of course Tom, if you wanna have a go at pro DPs, I'm right here son.. ;)

Peace Love and Light everyone

Shane
shanedaly.info

David Battistella said:
I'm not a mod or anything, but...

These are the wrong kinds of threads to be pissing on one and other. Its bad form. These are highly viewed threads (almost 60,00 views) people check frequently for real information not bickering. Taking a step back can be a good thing.

Maybe agree to disagree and delete a few posts. I'll delete this one if a few others are deleted as well.

Just sayin'

david
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
I've just viewed mark's Dragon tests and it does seem to deliver as hoped.


Shane Daly DP said:
David is correct. I was about to take Tom Gray on but maturity and professionalism are obviously the better way. I also read CML posts and I have to say that the signal to noise ratio is better there..

I'm passionate and excited about Dragon, and as a pro DP I can clearly see a lot of evidence in the Dragon shot of the white car that points to a very important sensor we're all about to enjoy, but I don't squeal about it here.

A slightly more professional dialogue and less fanboy ass kissing would go a long way here I think.

But of course Tom, if you wanna have a go at pro DPs, I'm right here son.. ;)

Peace Love and Light everyone

Shane
shanedaly.info
Click to expand...
 
As always a classy effort from Mark. IMHO images look great especially in the context they have had only a basic "one light" grade. Impressed by the image quality at the high compression rates at low light levels. Do not try this at home with the MX chip.
Initially a little disappointed that we are only seeing an extra stop in the highlights although the two extra stops in the shadows are welcome. I realise this is only early days but the Epic DR performance now pips the Alexa by a nose . This should now give the Epic Dragon the advantage in every area of performance although colour science remains to be fully explored.
I would be interested Mark in your thoughts on the Dragons "variable ASA" where the highlight clip and noise floor points no longer change with ASA setting? Did you see any of the performance parameters change from 200asa to 2000asa?
I was kind of hoping that Dragon was going to seriously outperform the Alexa in terms of DR as there is an arms race and I have no doubt Arri are presently building a new sensor that will outperform their present chip. Don't get me wrong I understand it is early days and the Dragon may not have fully unfurled its wings and I already have my money in the bank and will upgrade at the very first opportunity Red gives me.
 
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