Dragon??? So after nearly 10months what do we think? NATIVE 2000ASA no 18stops no ..

[Nick Morrison]

Perhaps in 2008. Red is supposed to be a 'Pro' company now.
IMO they should include atleast the low-light OLPF module for free.

If they behaved like a "PRO" company they'd be charging way more than $9K for the Dragon upgrade.

Arri is charging 4x that for the 1080 Amira.

RED has always catered to the indie market, which is why I strongly believe they've tried to make the upgrade cost as "reasonable" as possible, all things considered. I'm guessing here, but I can't imagine they are making that much profit of these upgrades.

Asking them to throw in "free OLPFs" and continually do things "for free" I think may be asking too much.

But then again, they've been known to surprise people, so who knows...if you already own a Dragon with NEW OLPF, maybe you'd get a DISCOUNT on the LOWLIGHT OLPF (which I'm sure would make people happy!), but again...I'd be surprised (and almost taken back) if you'd get it for FREE.

RED are here to HELP US, LISTEN, and make the BEST CAMERA POSSIBLE. Not sure it's in their best interest..or OURS..to give away the LOW LIGHT OLPF...as to me...that smacks of an apology or admission of guilt.

For what? Trying to make the Dragon as good as they can?

Already they are listening, and making the Golidlocks OLPF - the middle ground.

What else could we ask?

They are clearly bending over backwards to make Dragon as great as it can be...both for us..and for them.

To me...that's more than enough.

best.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I think RED takes a lot of flak over unfinished features because they do telegraph more of their plans. And they are always visibly working on updates and implementing things. It is different, but I'm preferring it to the alternative. An alternative that expects me to just buy a whole new camera to obtain newer features, even if only firmware based, and/ or an alternative where I have to buy individual licenses to use various features that are already a part of the system.

I don't think there's been a firmware build yet for a RED camera that I didn't consider as beta. Perhaps now for the RED One, but even the "release" builds for the EPIC/SCARLET seem to only be labeled as such just because a good number of people won't use a "beta." I suppose they go through some more rigorous testing to ensure stability to some extent, but I think I've pretty much rocked the latest builds (beta or not, but usually beta) on all my RED's since day 1. Even had various obscure internal builds or "alphas" in the early days of EPIC. Using them on real productions. I'm fine with how this works, I'm comfortable with it and I've been a supporter since I could first pre-order the RED One. This approach is not ideal for everyone. People just need to decide what's best for their own needs. There are no perfect cameras or camera companies.

I can relate very closely to all of this.
What has been new (and good) with Dragon, outside its image, is that it has been very stable (for me) compared to how the Epic and RED one were at (early) release.

Both became unkillable workhorses, but they certainly were not for early adoptors.

AND Dragon gave/gives me the same kick the original R1 did.

It is (in my opinion) really a significant advancement.

 

[David Battistella]

As far as I am concerned the Lowlight OLPF was a beta OLPF that was not quite up to standard.

What at did red do? They pushed for more. What did they deliver.

better highlights
much better color rendition
they made red dot flares, orb flares and other nastiness history

there was an issue where some red specs were appearing in the shadows, the software that's cleans that up will be out in a day.

I would never go with the LOWLight OLPF that was in the alpha cameras. Why? Because when you are shooting in that kind of light you really don't want all the problems that come with having light sources in the shot. Like match lit candle orbs and such.

The highlight OLPF performance has really satisfied my lowlight needs as I posted in this thread.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?120031-DRAGON-Florence-Italy

But I am not a daylight at night, turbo gain kind of guy. .

Just like natural looking, organic images and the dragon they ship today gives me that. The bonus. It will get better, that is reds track record.

Battistella

 

[Charles Bergquist]

they made red dot flares, orb flares and other nastiness history

Am I the only one that's getting this horrible red flare line on every shoot? Below are examples that I can actually share, but this is happening on set a lot right now with no way of correcting it. This really is more important that the noise issue or even going back and forth about dynamic range. I guess for me, the point in having more dynamic range is that you can have a brighter source, be it a window a light whatever next to your subject which is a little darker and still retain detail in both. If I try this at all on Dragon it throws a magenta CMOS flare across the subject. I get that it happens with all CMOS cameras, but this is the worst I've seen in a professional cinema camera.

Dragon New OLPF :

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/161718/001.0000871.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/161718/A003_C016_06202W.0000245.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/161718/A001_C001_0621X6.mov

EPIC MX doesn't have it nearly as bad :

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/161718/A005_C042_0327D8.0000029F.R3D

 

[Mike P.]

Charles, a couple of other people posted about the horizontal magenta smear a couple of days ago (again) as well (a couple threads down from this one). It's a known issue and presumably being worked on... Presumably. Not sure if it'd be a software/firmware fix or an OLPF fix thing.

 

[Phil Holland]

Am I the only one that's getting this horrible red flare line on every shoot? Below are examples that I can actually share, but this is happening on set a lot right now with no way of correcting it. This really is more important that the noise issue or even going back and forth about dynamic range. I guess for me, the point in having more dynamic range is that you can have a brighter source, be it a window a light whatever next to your subject which is a little darker and still retain detail in both. If I try this at all on Dragon it throws a magenta CMOS flare across the subject. I get that it happens with all CMOS cameras, but this is the worst I've seen in a professional cinema camera.

I just shot some test material and forwarded some notes over to Red yesterday regarding this. I've actually been investigating this behavior as it's something that happens on most CMOS systems. Notable things I've observed in terms of mitigating it's effect during practical shooting situations:

- It is a CMOS Horizontal Smearing Artifact.
- The artifact occurs when a light source is "hot".
- It is more apparent at higher ISO ratings. (magnifying the existence and visibility of the artifact)

You can shoot and basically never have it pop up, but the moment you have a massively high contrast ratio (especially if it's clipped next to say a black value) particularly at higher ISO ratings is what to look out for.

Red knows and is looking into solutions. It appears the same "way" as it does at Mysterium-X, however Dragon has a wider Dynamic Range both below the floor and above the ceiling of Mysterium-X which is why we are seeing "more" of it.

 

[David Battistella]

Charles,

I saw those same stills a while back. You shot the same space with the MX and didn't have the issue. I've seen it in similar high contrast stuff and it looks like one of those situations where you just can't do much to avoid it either. Is this pushed beyond 800 ISO? Seems to show up more at higher ISO. Not sure how the room is, but can you shoot around it? Can you create a mini flag for that source? I know that is not ideal, but I'm trying to be helpful with strategies, since that does not seem to be one that is going to be suddenly fixed. I have seen it on MX too, maybe dragon is just more sensitive.

A locon, dig icon or promist might help disperse the pixels and avoid the artifact.

battistella

 

[Medavoym]

Phil,

Thanks for tackling this issue head on - finally! Much appreciated.

I'm sure there are legitimate reasons why the CMOS Horizontal Smearing Artifact is much more pronounced on the Dragon compared to the MX sensor, and other CMOS cameras for that matter. However, as it currently stands, this artifact (quality/quantity) is simply unacceptable for a professional digital cinema camera. It needs to be fixed. Period.

P.S. I fully empathize with RED, by the way. I can only imagine the headaches they have on a daily basis. Fix something, something else pops up. Improve some areas, boom, some other thing needs fixing! It must be hell. But -- who said building the best digital cinema camera in the world is easy? It's damn hard. It's damn near impossible. But this is what RED chose to do. And they're doing a fantastic job, by the way. But problems - large and small - need to be fixed. Including this horribly annoying (for us and for RED, I'm sure!) CMOS Horizontal Smearing Artifact, which makes shots taken in the conditions you mentioned above totally unusable. And they're not such extreme conditions, either... they pop out quite often on sets.

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil,

Thanks for tackling this issue head on - finally! Much appreciated.

Jarred and Red have come forth and explained what's going on and I'm sure they are looking into ways of tackling it. I'm more or less stating why it's more visible.

From a practical shooting perspective what I can say is that it's something that can be worked around if you know when and where it comes up. Not perfect, but I'm more or less telling people what to look out for.

It's a weird one. Under most shooting conditions it's really not a problem. Under specific conditions though, well, then it shows.

 

[Martin Stevens]

Does this CMOS Horizontal Smearing Artifact appear when there is no OLPF in front of the sensor?

I assume it does.

 

[John Marchant]

Yes it does.

 

[Charles Bergquist]

I just shot some test material and forwarded some notes over to Red yesterday regarding this. I've actually been investigating this behavior as it's something that happens on most CMOS systems. Notable things I've observed in terms of mitigating it's effect during practical shooting situations:

- It is a CMOS Horizontal Smearing Artifact.
- The artifact occurs when a light source is "hot".
- It is more apparent at higher ISO ratings. (magnifying the existence and visibility of the artifact)

You can shoot and basically never have it pop up, but the moment you have a massively high contrast ratio (especially if it's clipped next to say a black value) particularly at higher ISO ratings is what to look out for.

Red knows and is looking into solutions. It appears the same "way" as it does at Mysterium-X, however Dragon has a wider Dynamic Range both below the floor and above the ceiling of Mysterium-X which is why we are seeing "more" of it.

First off, Phil, really respect the work you do for informing everyone on the Red Ecosystem.

This happens at all ISO ranges, more "whoa what is that" at at higher ISOs. The images I posted we at 640 ISO, RedLogFilm. We just shot a lit interior bar scene at 400 ISO with exterior light coming through windows. The magenta flare was everywhere with no solution other than to shoot in an opposite direction.

However, even if you not have it full clip, it'll still happen. Which is the window example I posted, that was not clipping, there's diffusion on that window. I feel in my testing, it's only a high contrast issue, which, sort of negates the concept of having so much dynamic range.

I really hope people get these out in the field and really test them on set and run into this and we can help Red with a solution.

 

[Phil Holland]

First off, Phil, really respect the work you do for informing everyone on the Red Ecosystem.

This happens at all ISO ranges, more "whoa what is that" at at higher ISOs. The images I posted we at 640 ISO, RedLogFilm. We just shot a lit interior bar scene at 400 ISO with exterior light coming through windows. The magenta flare was everywhere with no solution other than to shoot in an opposite direction.

However, even if you not have it full clip, it'll still happen. Which is the window example I posted, that was not clipping, there's diffusion on that window. I feel in my testing, it's only a high contrast issue, which, sort of negates the concept of having so much dynamic range.

I really hope people get these out in the field and really test them on set and run into this and we can help Red with a solution.

Cheers Charles.

I chose my words carefully. "More apparent" and "hot", note I didn't say "only" or "clip". It's visible when it arises at all ISO ratings. And like you said at higher ISOs with similar contrast ranges it's more visible.

I'm noticing it as well in the high contrast situations. I fired off a few clips yesterday and sent them to Red that I think might help things out, but we'll see what they can come up with.

It's something to be on the lookout for when setting up shots/frames/exposures. I can think of a few possible solutions both from a software and hardware side. We'll have to wait and see if it can be fixed. For the moment though, be on the lookout for it popping up.

 

[Nick Fury]

Thank you Phil for doing those tests. Sadly, I prefer the one without DEB because DEB appears to destroy the red color in the veins in the eye.

...unless you have grey veins in your eye?

Look closely and you'll see it.

It seems to be introducing crosstalk - by stealing data from the other channels, it's making incorrect guesses. It's not magically finding new detail... it's grabbing it in various forms from the other channels.

I will very likely continue my existing policy of Neat Video for many shots.

I would say that it is a serious mischaracterization to suggest that DEB only "adds detail" and 3rd party filters "destroy detail" - for example, Neat Video through temporal analysis can definitely "discover" detail... and DEB I think can similarly destroy valuable color info. But I think you know that too, right? So why not just say it like it is? We can agree that a little richness can be lost, right?

DEB:

No DEB:

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Hi Phil,

could you confirm whether the images I see on my monitor (without you seeing my monitor, of cpourse...) of what appear to be scleral vessels in the left side of your eye were present in vivo? Do you know if DEB takes a certain density of , say 660nm wavelength and perhaps filters that out? If that is akin to what DEB does, I can readily understand that on certain occasions DEB would be beneficial and other occasions, not so much.

Thank you very much

Fury

 

[Nick Morrison]

The seventh? That was a really odd statement, Phil.

a7s, 5D, 1Dc, f5, f55, c300, c500 all give you cleaner iso at 2000. Most have rather good IR blocking tech too. The only way to get Dragon coming close to matching is by exporting via ADD. Which takes forever.

Whether the camera shoots 6K or not, is not a relevant issue at all. 6K will never be an international format (other than imax... maybe).

Red Dragon is a lot of great things, but by making these irrelevant comparisons (red herrings, really!) are an exercise in futility...

Cleaner ISO yes. But are these cameras actually CLEAN at 2000? Either way, I think it's a moot point. With interchangeable OLPFs on the horizon, Dragon users can use the LOWLIGHT OLPF for...yes, pretty clean 2000...which many seem to want/demand.

So Dragon should be covered for lowlight.

I think Phil's point about 6K isn't about the resolution, but about 6K's advantages for delivering in 4K and 1080. Shooting on LOWLIGHT OLPF at 6K won't just give you clean ISO, but also give you tremendous flexibility for denoising IN POST...for even better 4K delivery...even cleaner at 1080.

So 6K does matter, and I think it's important. The C300 can shoot lowlight yes, but it's denoising can be quite noticeable to some. The beauty of shooting 6K and denoising in POST is the outcome is much more flexible and controllable...both in 4K and 1080.

PS - I don't think 6K was ever intended as a "format". My understanding was it was intended for debayring 5K masters, which in turn gives VFX enough room to work in a 4K timeline (where "reframing" is often necessary).

I personally am very grateful to Phil for the amount of time/effort he puts into his posts. Imagine where we'd be without him?

best.

 

[Phil Holland]

That was a really odd statement, Phil.

Nick gets me. I don't think any of the cameras you listed are "clean" at ISO 2000. Had an A7s here two weeks ago. Impressive tech in terms of reaching into darkness, but not what I would call "clean" at those ISOs. Texture bounces around a whole lot. Resolving fine details in shadows and dark areas are also not what it's great at. It can see into the darkness though and that's where the technology is very interesting to me. This mainly comes from the BI sensor design. And I think we're in the early days of seeing where this sort of thing can go.

And I've mentioned elsewhere on this forum, but the real "war" going on (at least for certain studios) is desiring cameras that utilize on board noise reduction or not. That's an important concept that many will overlook. I'm not into plastic skin in a theatrical setting. And if necessary I'll utilize post noise reduction if the situation calls for it, which has honestly been a while because I'm not shooting that way very much. Mostly because the professionals and colleagues I admire are also not shooting that way.

I agree 6K isn't for everybody. Heck I have to deal with why 4K isn't for everybody fairly often still. Even today. Everybody needs to make decisions about their desired captured format and resolution for their desired output. I am still on the side of wanting high resolution capture and needing compressed raw recording. It's more powerful from a creative perspective and can create high quality images.

Much of my personal perspective really stems from what tool has the potential to create very high quality images. Hence they reason I'm a Red owner/shooter. It's mostly because I know what I "can" do with the camera.

 

[Nick Morrison]

the f5 is pretty amazing at raw at 2000iso.

Yes, but it does so by denoising in camera. Which I know has turned off many. A colorist I love and admire HATES the Sony cameras for this. Loathes their skin tone and textures. Refers to them as "plasticky" for this very reason. Both RED and ARRI do not denoise in camera for a reason.

And again, lets call a spade a spade. Once you have the LOWLIGHT OLPF in your Dragon, you'll be able to shoot lowlight. This should not be an issue going forward. At all.

And again...I see 6K is an acquisition format (much like 4K Sony Raw). I can't imagine many using it as a master. But having 6K is a major advantage over 5K or 4K...particularly for denoising...keying, etc...especially when oversampling down to smaller formats like 2K. I don't see the issue here.

Shoot 6K. At 5000 ISO on Lowlight OLPF. Denoise it. Get pristine 1080/2K quicktimes. And deliver. That's the beauty of it.

I've always seen 6K as a means to an end. A means of getting gorgeous 4k and 2K/1080 deliverables.

And yes 4K is becoming a real standard. It can't be ignored. Right now VFX is done in 2K, yes...but that may change in next year or two as workflows evolve and adapt to this emerging reality.

 

[Martin Stevens]

CLEAN is relative, and there's the rub.

"To sleep, perchance to Dream; Aye, there's the rub."

 

[Phil Holland]

Yes Phil, Dragon is an awesome camera. Red has been progressive improving their system for 7 or so years now. We get this, and this is really not what we are discussing (unless I have missed something?).

But this discussion on "clean" is really odd. Personally, I like noise. Dragon and Alexa noise bode well for me, and I have no issues of shooting at over 3000ISO (which is ironically the base ISO of the A7S at slog2.. by the way, how did you shoot at 2000 iso using Slog2... it is technically impossible, unless I missed something).

Board noise reduction? Or... black calibration (which is exactly what most cameras do in between exposures)? Sony has done this for a long time, as has canon. Additionally the "plastic" look comes more from in camera sharpening. In fact, moreso from that than any onboard noise reduction IMHO. Even the alexa does this (which is why its images still look so sharp at 4K... )

Without getting into brand bashing I prepped 3 jobs this year that won't allow Canon or Sony cameras on set. That's all I can say on that matter.

I am saying that if you are happy with the ISO 1600 and 3200 and beyond samples shown here from the A7s and describe them as clean:
http://www.jdfnet.com/2014/08/01/sony-a7s-vs-red-epic-and-gh4-low-light/

Than why is Dragon at ISO 2000 not considered clean:


I don't recall if I used the denoise slider or not, but that is a 2.40:1 crop from 6K HD material at ISO 2000.

 

[paul schefz]

Cleaner ISO yes. But are these cameras actually CLEAN at 2000? Either way, I think it's a moot point. With interchangeable OLPFs on the horizon, Dragon users can use the LOWLIGHT OLPF for...yes, pretty clean 2000...which many seem to want/demand.

So Dragon should be covered for lowlight.

i wish i had the same outlook for the future....since i am basing mine on what was announced and delivered a year ago...when clean 2000 was announced and many of the lucky first few also considered delivered....only to throw the whole thing out because of the new olpf only to come up with changeable olpf which will solve all our problems, high, low, DR, noise, whatever anyone wants, but not yet and who knows how much (which of course makes sense, because right now it might as well be vaporware)....we have no clue when that replaceable olpf kit will be available and ready to use and if it actually will do what we are told it will....based on the 2 olpfs that are available, i am just not sure.....
i really don't care much about the a7s but if anyone would have told us when the first dragons came out that for 2500$ you can buy a FF clean see in the dark 4k (without downsampling) in a couple of months nobody would have believed it....
so yes, my hope is that red will pull the rabbit out of the hat and come up with something amazing....but in reality it is more likely for sony to just put all the things they have together and blow everybody else out of the water....
any way, i also think that it is much more realistic to expect dragon to mature into it's unique promise and i don't think that will incl strong low light....