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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon??? So after nearly 10months what do we think? NATIVE 2000ASA no 18stops no ..

Jarred Land said:
The problem with removing a filter on top of a filter behind the lens is that your back focus would be thrown out of whack when you did that, That is why even if you wanted the no-filtration option, you would put an optical clear filter the same thickness in there to keep everything aligned so you wouldn't need to reset your back focus every time.
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Thanks Jarred. My thought was an empty ring that holds the filter or is swapped, to maintain back focus. But you could put the filter on the front of the camera, but that is a problem. You could have it as a weather sealed slide in frame etc. If this was the only fix required, I would be happy with something that could be slid in or out in seconds. Makes you think, how much space is there for such a frame to carry multiple filters.
 
Hey. Bruce,

deb is a tick box and you turn it on or off on a per shot basis. To curb expectations.
It does NOT get rid of the sensor pattern noise,
it DOES get rid of RED DOT noise in the shadows and blacks.

images can appear sharper but there is no sharpening going on.

There are shots where you want it and shots when you don't. You choose.

battistella
 
Bruce Allen said:
Thank you Jarred for the confirmation. That was exactly what I thought (and posted earlier).

Please make DEB something we can turn off.

DEB just loses too much chroma detail for me. It's almost like a harsh median filter - like when you have Chroma Noise Reduction turned up too high in Lightroom or DXO. You can't get that detail back. Dunno about you but I find myself turning that down more and more these days. I look at stills I shot years ago and just cringe at the fact I didn't pull the Chroma NR down more from the default back then.

I don't always want chroma NR in the beginning of my post chain and I'm surprised that someone like Phil is calling it "adding detail" when I'm sure someone with his technical skill can see that it is obviously not that simple. In that eye example, I can't believe people can't see it. But I guess the whole "smear a whole person's facial colors into one shade of bronze" thing has caused people to not look in the mirror and see what humans really look like.

Congrats on the color improvements - those really are the key for me. Looking forward to larger sensors, sensors with better S/N ratio, light-field OLPF inserts, etc in the future of course but this is exciting stuff and the fact that you can make Dragon look damn brilliant if you throw enough light at it is amazing. I just got off VFX supervising a promo shoot with the new OLPF Dragon where I was worried about its low-light ability and ready to shoot 180 degree shutter 24fps if needed... but we found that the sensor was sensitive enough for 90 degree 48fps which made tracking a tricky shot VASTLY easier. And the color looked great.

I guess I'm really in the minority here. I also understand people are upset that they did not get the promised "2000 is the new 800" - and it's nice to see you catering to them too. I think the real issue is in the messaging - if the upgraded OLPF had been presented with a clear warning that you lose a stop of light or whatever, people would have been far more receptive because then they could have made the choice with open eyes. But it was not done that way. I remember that there were a bunch of Alexa vs Dragon tests and everyone was saying how they were invalid because they were the old OLPF... the new OLPF would have greater latitude, etc. Phil's post just said you gain a stop and a third in the highlights, etc. Folks just thought they were getting MOORRREEE!

Please don't do the same thing with DEB. Just sell it for what it is. End 2c.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
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I can accept that criticism on the rollout of the new OLPF... and that is not Phil's fault by any stretch, it's not his job. People can still have their " 2000 is the new 800 " with the old OLPF if they want it and if thats how they rated it and raved about it with the original Dragons that had the older OLPF. The sensor is the same... its just the glass ahead of it. We probably should start calling it the Low Light OLPF though as the new / old thing is going to get confusing when there is more than one other option available.

DEB isn't as simple as a Chroma noise reduction like you are comparing it to, There is a fair amount of rather complicated color balancing happening in there in the RAW space that goes way deeper than any RGB/Chroma noise reduction can accomplish. It's a blend of a bunch of things, which is why it has taken Graeme so long to get right, and I am sure it will get better over time. That is why it is an optional switch.
 
Jarred Land said:
You have a picture of a step chart that has the 21 steps of the chart labeled on it because we had to use a special chart since the normal dynamic range charts all stop at 15 stops. When you show a step chart, you show the whole cart to see how much of that is usable. Some people looked at that chart and drew their own wrong conclusions. Dragon can capture anywhere between 16-18 stops depending who you ask and how they measure, and in our spec we listed 16.5 on our website and in our tech specs before anyone paid for the Dragon or Dragon upgrade.

I want to make this clear... Some of the best images that have ever been shot on any camera have been with the Dragon. Lots of great stuff is starting to come out now, the images speak for themselves. The Dragon is the best sensor we have ever made.. for every measurable reason.

Before we released the new OLPF, nobody ever complained about "noise" from a Dragon. People complained about the flares and the skin tones and wanted more highlight retention. So for those people we fixed it, at the expense of the bottom end because the flares and skin tones were a result of letting in "bad" parts of the light spectrum to the sensor.

That " bad " light had an advantage because even though it was bad light, it was light and it lifted things up. Again... the MX did the same thing.. and that never bothered some people, but bothered others... Skin-tones have been the biggest complaint we used to receive since we started. The really talented guys will pick better color science, better skintones, and an image with a higher IQ over one that is a lesser image any day.

But there are some people that want to shoot in the dark... and shoot at high ISOs etc.. so we made it an option. It's just an option. If you want the best camera in low light, you can use the old OLPF. If you want the best camera for everything else.. use the new OLPF. We will have something in the middle.. as well as other options as the swappable OLPF comes along.

I don't really get the insanity that people are making around this.. and the bizarre complaints by people that don't even have a Dragon or have never shot a Dragon. Complaining about noise on the new OLPF is like buying a sports car with large rims and low profile tires and loving how handling is so much better but then complaining about the decreased comfort.

Like I said... It's an option.. low noise.. choose the old OLPF. Better everything else.. choose the new OLPF.

If you don't like RED... or don't like what we make, getting all hot and bothered over this whole thing is just a waste of time.. Go buy something else. Life is short. I am not getting alot complaints from the people I consider the most talented... those guys are the ones that tell us " can you fix skin tones ? " or " can you fix this " and we do. And the images that they go out and make are stunning.
Click to expand...

This is what makes Reduser and RED as a company such an amazing experience. You have something you want improved or tweaked and the company is listening. Where else does this happen? Where else does the President interact with it's not only owners but users as well? Jarred and all, thank you for continually listening and for always working on improvements and listening to user feedback (it's not always correct feedback but you listen nonetheless). This is why I promote RED and this is what i see as an ideal example of customer service and customer interaction!

Really feels good to know a company has it's users backs despite the sometimes harsh feedback. Thank you RED!
 
Just finished a grade on a TVC I shot with the Dragon sensor. Rated the camera at 400asa as I was concerned about noise. At 400asa there was not even a hint of noise. Next job I will rate at 500asa and slowly push the envelope. Colorist was loving the Dragon footage. The only bummer with the grade was the release build of Resolve does not support Dragoncolor or maybe we couldn't find it?

As I light most of my work I am not too concerned if I end up rating the camera at 500 or 640asa. Did a studio shoot with a 2000asa rated Sony F5 and only a very limited lighting package and I ended up using ND9 but I am a WFO kind of guy.
 
Jarred Land said:
That " bad " light had an advantage because even though it was bad light, it was light and it lifted things up.
Click to expand...

Aah, this clarifies what it is all about and explains the test results between MX and Dragon sensors shown as well as my own findings. One of the best things of this forum is the implicit educational impact it has on everybody following the discussions. Guess this "side-effect" is also one of the most effective tools to cut down unjustified criticism and complaints.
 
Matt Ryan said:
This is what makes Reduser and RED as a company such an amazing experience. You have something you want improved or tweaked and the company is listening. Where else does this happen? Where else does the President interact with it's not only owners but users as well? Jarred and all, thank you for continually listening and for always working on improvements and listening to user feedback (it's not always correct feedback but you listen nonetheless). This is why I promote RED and this is what i see as an ideal example of customer service and customer interaction!

Really feels good to know a company has it's users backs despite the sometimes harsh feedback. Thank you RED!
Click to expand...

+1000

I'm about to drop off my Scarlet-X today for an Epic MX....my RED journey slowly moving towards Dragon...and I feel the same. I'm constantly impressed by how committed Jarred and his team are to their customers. It's a unique experience I enjoy, and am proud to be a part of.

best
 
Nick Morrison said:
+1000

I'm about to drop off my Scarlet-X today for an Epic MX....my RED journey slowly moving towards Dragon...and I feel the same. I'm constantly impressed by how committed Jarred and his team are to their customers. It's a unique experience I enjoy, and am proud to be a part of.

best
Click to expand...

I coud not agree more!!! (And I usually agree with you, but here I extra, extra agree!)
 
Elsie is just over zealous in his defense of Red. These threads would be literlly a 1/4 the size if the people with problems were not goaded and their professionalism questioned and ridiculed.

Luckily Jarred/Red knows there is no smoke without fire and as usual Red moves to fix the issues and just a couple pages back acknowledge them.
 
Jarred Land said:
You have a picture of a step chart that has the 21 steps of the chart labeled on it because we had to use a special chart since the normal dynamic range charts all stop at 15 stops. When you show a step chart, you show the whole cart to see how much of that is usable. Some people looked at that chart and drew their own wrong conclusions. Dragon can capture anywhere between 16-18 stops depending who you ask and how they measure, and in our spec we listed 16.5 on our website and in our tech specs before anyone paid for the Dragon or Dragon upgrade.

I want to make this clear... Some of the best images that have ever been shot on any camera have been with the Dragon. Lots of great stuff is starting to come out now, the images speak for themselves. The Dragon is the best sensor we have ever made.. for every measurable reason.

Before we released the new OLPF, nobody ever complained about "noise" from a Dragon. People complained about the flares and the skin tones and wanted more highlight retention. So for those people we fixed it, at the expense of the bottom end because the flares and skin tones were a result of letting in "bad" parts of the light spectrum to the sensor.

That " bad " light had an advantage because even though it was bad light, it was light and it lifted things up. Again... the MX did the same thing.. and that never bothered some people, but bothered others... Skin-tones have been the biggest complaint we used to receive since we started. The really talented guys will pick better color science, better skintones, and an image with a higher IQ over one that is a lesser image any day.

But there are some people that want to shoot in the dark... and shoot at high ISOs etc.. so we made it an option. It's just an option. If you want the best camera in low light, you can use the old OLPF. If you want the best camera for everything else.. use the new OLPF. We will have something in the middle.. as well as other options as the swappable OLPF comes along.

I don't really get the insanity that people are making around this.. and the bizarre complaints by people that don't even have a Dragon or have never shot a Dragon. Complaining about noise on the new OLPF is like buying a sports car with large rims and low profile tires and loving how handling is so much better but then complaining about the decreased comfort.

Like I said... It's an option.. low noise.. choose the old OLPF. Better everything else.. choose the new OLPF.

If you don't like RED... or don't like what we make, getting all hot and bothered over this whole thing is just a waste of time.. Go buy something else. Life is short. I am not getting alot complaints from the people I consider the most talented... those guys are the ones that tell us " can you fix skin tones ? " or " can you fix this " and we do. And the images that they go out and make are stunning.
Click to expand...

Im clear about it all... My Post was rhetorical and more to stimulate healthy dialogue on what has turn into a used car lot of a forum. If it came across any differently see my second post where I clarify my reason for asking. Personally i hate Noise, but that goes back to telecine transfer days...uuuugh
Do i love my dragon? without question. I can almost send it to the job by itself....
 
Jarred Land said:
Before we released the new OLPF, nobody ever complained about "noise" from a Dragon. People complained about the flares and the skin tones and wanted more highlight retention. So for those people we fixed it, at the expense of the bottom end because the flares and skin tones were a result of letting in "bad" parts of the light spectrum to the sensor.

That " bad " light had an advantage because even though it was bad light, it was light and it lifted things up. Again... the MX did the same thing.. and that never bothered some people, but bothered others... Skin-tones have been the biggest complaint we used to receive since we started. The really talented guys will pick better color science, better skintones, and an image with a higher IQ over one that is a lesser image any day.
Click to expand...
Does the same process (swoping OLPF) could be doable with the MX, I mean loosing some sensivity in the low end for improving image HQ and high light roll of ?
I guess the answer is no, but I'm curious there.
Cheers
B.
 
Sergio Perez said:
That would satisfy 99.9% of us. Jarred. Something just better than MX in all parameters.Doesn't need to be stellar in Dynamic Range or have the best colours. Just better than MX in all these aspects, including noise, no need to go as far as the OLD OLPF, but just a bit better than MX, without some of the current artefacts of the old OLPF. Confident as always you guys will make it happen. I am sending my money next week and am ordering possibly the OLD OLPF since I have to have a good low light performer for November, but with full confidence that this middle ground OLPF will be the one never leaving my sensor!
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Jarred, I agree. And reading your responses to this discussion I want to sincerely thank you for really listening. I am very blunt, but the goal is to make things better, for me, for other Redusers for Red. I've never preferred any camera to our Epic MX. I know Dragon will eventually become something I like even more, with no regrets, no caveats, no yes-buts of any kind. I'm sure that day is soon. I am excited.
 
jacob.schwarz said:
Jarred can you give us a general idea on price point for the swappable olpf.
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Yes please...as this will determine which OLPF we want as our standard when we send our remaining 2 epics to be upgraded. (Currently we have a dragon with new OLPF and it simply looks and performs amazing on sunny days...blown away by the highlight retention and skin colors)
 
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