Dragon??? So after nearly 10months what do we think? NATIVE 2000ASA no 18stops no ..

[sergio arguello]

Why does RED do this? claim so much to only flail later and beg for the brilliant engineers to stop pushing forward, but waste valueable time by going backward to make algorithmic fixes so this sensors works just close to what was promised.Now from what
i read 250asa seems to be the pitch spot for this sensor. great highlight rolloff with a fragile noise floor tradeoff, depending on oplf version.

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

Because it sells cameras. Dragon was badly delayed for some reason and this is one way to keep customers from switching to Sony / Canon. The 20 stops chart is another example. Every major camera website published that chart, and that's the stuff that sticks. Not the complaints or disappointments posted by a few users.

Always assume Red can't keep half of their promises. ;-)

 

[Phil Holland]

Just wow.

Why does RED do this? claim so much to only flail later and beg for the brilliant engineers to stop pushing forward, but waste valueable time by going backward to make algorithmic fixes so this sensors works just close to what was promised.Now from what
i read 250asa seems to be the pitch spot for this sensor. great highlight rolloff with a fragile noise floor tradeoff, depending on oplf version.

First. They have always said 16+ stops.

Second. With the V1 OLPF you are essentially getting that cleaner ISO 2000.

Third. "waste valuable time by going backward to make algorithmic fixes". If this is in reference to DEB making the individual color channels better and resolve more detail while correcting a specific artifact shouldn't be considered a waste of time as it makes image quality slightly better and does have very real benefits when it comes to things like keying.

Fourth. ISO 250 is the "cleanest" ISO. Just like on all cameras the lower ISO rating is the cleanest. Heck, just like film stock for that matter. ISO 250-500 is likely what you are looking for in regards to a clean image on the V2 OLPF. V1 OLPF places the tonality 1.3 stops in favor of cleaner higher ISO ratings. That's what that is.

Because it sells cameras. Dragon was badly delayed for some reason and this is one way to keep customers from switching to Sony / Canon. The 20 stops chart is another example. Every major camera website published that chart, and that's the stuff that sticks. Not the complaints or disappointments posted by a few users.

Always assume Red can't keep half of their promises. ;-)

Fifth. The first Xyla-21 posted was clearly stated that this was before any color science and calibration was placed into the system.

Sixth. If you both feel this way, the V1 OLPF is actually what you want and Red offers to put this in your camera. That's the current situation and if you don't see the enhancements of the Dragon image over Mysterium-X in a variety of ways I don't know what else to say. Those are the facts in reality.

I'll add a seventh here. What camera is giving you clean ISO 2000? What camera shoots 6K? What camera gives you 5K in an S35 format? What camera has vastly improved IR blocking technology? etc.....

 

[David Battistella]

I'm putting most of the dragon problems down to PEBKAC error.

i just made a bunch of street images at 250iso in the dimly lit streets of Florence. I'm away for a couple of days and I'll post samples when I get back. I've done most of the same shots on MX. V2 OLPF Dragon blows it away in low light. 2000iso is actually pushing too much of the shots and 800 with a light curve has the grain of a 250D film stock, maybe 500T.

Most of the "issues" are quite overblown once you understand and work with the system.

As as we have seen. Many people are achieving outstanding results.

Battistella

 

[sergio arguello]

Phil, with all due respect i have a graph somewhere that illistrated 20stops actually, but thats said i wasnt nitpicking. I just want to know from shootr to shooter are we indeed satisfied? I can make solid images with 4 lights and an iPhone so thats not my issue, but more a rabid red lover and was hoping this upgrade was the one that silenced all the naysayers once and for all.This is hardly the case! actually Alexa still seems to be slammed down my throat by productions as the camera of choice, whether i like it or not.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

The Dragon is on par or even better than the Alexa sensor together with 6K resolution and larger field of view than s35, while still being able to shoot up to 100 fps.
Just finished grading a Dragon music video and it's a joy to be working with this compared to the MX sensor. Yes, the noise is high, but then again, at this time there are some issues with that which will be fixed through firmware.

Bottom line, Red listened to the critique and made a sensor that makes it impossible for Alexa lovers to judge Red based on image quality. That is huge and I don't think you understand how huge that is in the industry. It might just be that the Dragon becomes the camera of choice and taking Alexas place as the most used digital cinema camera in the industry. Time will tell.

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil, with all due respect i have a graph somewhere that illistrated 20stops actually, but thats said i wasnt nitpicking. I just want to know from shootr to shooter are we indeed satisfied? I can make solid images with 4 lights and an iPhone so thats not my issue, but more a rabid red lover and was hoping this upgrade was the one that silenced all the naysayers once and for all.This is hardly the case! actually Alexa still seems to be slammed down my throat by productions as the camera of choice, whether i like it or not.

Respect taken and well received. I've measured 19 visible stops across the entire ISO range. However, within the recommended ISO range (250-2000) you really won't be utilizing more than 16/17/18 stops in "reality". The Alexa has a very strong hold due to a variety of reasons and getting anybody to choose anything different is going to be tricky for certain markets. More or less though if you are looking to shoot for a 4K finish that's actually the bigger question that needs to be asked as only one of those two systems is actually appropriate for that in my mind.

If you are happy with the pixel quality and codec of an iPhone image in comparison to what's possible on Dragon I don't know what to say. Similarly shooting with cameras that utilize noise reduction on board for a 4K finish is slightly counter intuitive due to the loss of detail information.

I can with 100% certainly say that the Alexa can't shoot 6K, 5.5K, 5K, or 4K. XT with Open Gate gets 3.4K though.

 

[luigivaltulini]

Alexa still has a big advantage: it is called ProRes.
Out of this the image of Dragon are higher as textures and colors.
Dragon now also have the carbon, a camera even more light, people today also want gimbal and octocopter and want lightness, Red also has this.


Sergio, the new OLPF and noise at the same time as or better mx under tungsten light of much.If you want even more, well, just change OLPF and have the famous 2000 iso clean and if you add add sprints up to 5000 with excellent results.


Even though my word is worth little I am convinced that once you try it you will not go back more, you'll just want to go out and shoot.

 

[sergio arguello]

Ypu seem intent on the protecting the positive aspects of what youve uncovered about the Dragon far more that what im actually asking this thread to be about. from Shooter to Shooter is this what we expected. Is this what was touted? I for one feel
like i can make the camera work well. But from all the discussions all over the forum and internet its NOT the screaming success we thought it was going to be. Now I like the you do un believable amounts of research Phil and for that i say thank you. I think your response to me is coming from your loyalty to Red and not from Dp to Dp.

Ps. iPhone comment was a metaphor

 

[jake blackstone]

What camera shoots 6K?

F65 with 8k sensor is the only camera capable of producing a true 6k images. Just because Dragon produces bayered 6k image doesn't make it into a final 6k image. It's just not possible...

 

[Dominik Muench]

...... just change OLPF and have the famous 2000 iso clean and if you add add sprints up to 5000 with excellent results.

Is there any information yet on what the changeable OLPFs will cost ?

 

[David Battistella]

was hoping this upgrade was the one that silenced all the naysayers once and for all.This is hardly the case! actually Alexa still seems to be slammed down my throat by productions as the camera of choice, whether i like it or not.

Sergio,

Its a great sensor and a great system. It's not Red fault productions are still choosing Alexa. Or maybe it is, I don't know. We just have to make the pictures. Production is a bit trendy. For a while RED was a trend now it's Alexa. ARRi's shoot>edit campaign was a big hit that happened at the right time. Prores, no extra hardware needed, ecc. They built their camera on hd/2k and created a very manageable system with a camera that produces lovely images.

HD prores it's "good enough" for features, for tv for movs, commercials. Ultimately the "good enough" crowd does not want the "perceived" hassle that is RED and they aren't going to PAY extra $ to shoot a system even if it is far superior.

Sometimes market forces dictate this stuff, but I don't think that makes one better over the other.

Whatever image improvements come would not put RED over the top, the whole ecosystem has to make creative and financial sense for productions. Opening GPU processing was a major step forward and the SDK makes working with red easier than ever.

Battistella

 

[Mendes Nabil]

With all the respect i have for Red, i don't think that the resolution is a valid argument, who can really tell the difference between a 6k image and a 4k one? As 90% of theaters (at least here in Paris) diffuse in 1080p.. People will talk about crop possibilities and downsampling quality over a native 1080p, let's be serious, and let's talk about "what really matters": color, dynamic range, low light capabilities, noise..

Red Dragon is at her early age, i'm sure we will see some crazy improvements in the next few months, but to be honest, and i've already said it in other threads, no Dragon footage made me go crazy yet, in fact, all i've seen until now could have been made by the Mx sensor.. In term of color, creaminess and texture, Alexa is still above for me..


For people who tried, what are the dragon low light capabilities vs Alexa?

 

[Bohdan Klos]

Reds skills lie in tech, not PR. - I realise it is necessary to manage the PR to counteract negative opinions, hence why I`m sure Phil feels like a fire fighter. Dashing from thread to thread to explain how Red came to its marketing conclusions.


Reds famous stoic silence on matters is not helping things. Is the magenta line a priority? Is a mid range "goldilocks" OLPF that I can leave in my camera a priority? There are lots of other questions...


I`m seeing long term fans of Red and long time contributors to Reduser becoming more and more critical. I think these issues could be handled better.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

F65 with 8k sensor is the only camera capable of producing a true 6k images. Just because Dragon produces bayered 6k image doesn't make it into a final 6k image. It's just not possible...

The F65 is the best camera around when only speaking image quality, everything else, not so much...

 

[Phil Holland]

With all the respect i have for Red, i don't think that the resolution is a valid argument, who can really tell the difference between a 6k image and a 4k one? As 90% of theaters (at least here in Paris) diffuse in 1080p.. People will talk about crop possibilities and downsampling quality over a native 1080p, let's be serious, and let's talk about "what really matters": color, dynamic range, low light capabilities, noise..

Red Dragon is at her early age, i'm sure we will see some crazy improvements in the next few months, but to be honest, and i've already said it in other threads, no Dragon footage made me go crazy yet, in fact, all i've seen until now could have been made by the Mx sensor.. In term of color, creaminess and texture, Alexa is still above for me..

With the skin tones and color being so much improved on Dragon I'm a bit shocked that you aren't seeing that difference. 4K finish to some is very important. For people like me who don't work in 1080p for instance. The color, dynamic range, and with that the rather impressive IR containment there's a lot to take notice of. The natural highlight roll-off is very important compared to MX for me. I like the more organic images I'm getting from Dragon.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

F65 and IQ? its on same level with Epic-X and 1-2 stop better highlight retention nothing more than these.Comparing F65 with Dragon is not even fair
8K? its has almost same data rate with Epic-X and its 8K? it resolves same detail with Alexa which has 2.8K sensor..someone is lying ! Arri should rename their Alev sensor as 10K because its better than 8K sony sensor.

 

[Bohdan Klos]

With the skin tones and color being so much improved on Dragon I'm a bit shocked that you aren't seeing that difference. 4K finish to some is very important. For people like me who don't work in 1080p for instance. The color, dynamic range, and with that the rather impressive IR containment there's a lot to take notice of. The natural highlight roll-off is very important compared to MX for me. I like the more organic images I'm getting from Dragon.

The color improvement is significantly reduced with the old OLPF - the 2nd OLPF is GREAT! First OLPF color doesn't set my world on fire.

 

[Mendes Nabil]

I hear you Phil, your "more organic" feeling about dragon is something i've noticed, but not in every tests i've seen.. Maybe it has something to do with this OLPF dilemma?

Let's talk about that last point, do you think that a 3rd generation of Olpf will come, with advantages of the old mixed with the second? I don't see myself choosing between "better color with more noise or better low light capabilities with old color" (even if i know what would be my choice)...

I think that this "Olpf old vs new" is what make a lot of us crazy, we don't know what to think and where to really place the dragon sensor in the "high camera competition"..

I know that Red hear us, and i know that they will impress us, i personally can't wait for that..

Ps: i would love to see a "Red dragon" spot made by Red to promote this new sensor, a spot that reunite a monster crazy team "great director, great D.O.P, great colorist, great editor", there is not so much dragon footages out there so, Red, what are you waiting for to convince us? (maybe do you need to resolve this Olpf issue before? I would understand..)

 

[jake blackstone]

F65 and IQ? its on same level with Epic-X and 1-2 stop better highlight retention nothing more than these.Comparing F65 with Dragon is not even fair
8K? its has almost same data rate with Epic-X and its 8K? it resolves same detail with Alexa which has 2.8K sensor..someone is lying ! Arri should rename their Alev sensor as 10K because its better than 8K sony sensor.

Sensor resolution has nothing to do with highlight retention as well as recording data rate. Sensor resolution directly corresponds to the number of sensor photo sites. Confusing all these things doesn't help this conversation...