Dragon Reality Check

[Mike P.]

My solution is to use the 3.5mm stereo to full size XLR that I mount up top via a cable clamp on a rod. That way I know it doesn't get tugged out and I can also get the XLR connection secured anywhere I have a 1/4-20 mounting point.

Do you have a link to the those cable clamps?

To be fair, I still don't know if you can plug/unplug the 3.5mm jacks when phantom power is on (doesn't it blow the sound board)?

 

[D Fuller]

My solution is to use the 3.5mm stereo to full size XLR that I mount up top via a cable clamp on a rod. That way I know it doesn't get tugged out and I can also get the XLR connection secured anywhere I have a 1/4-20 mounting point.

Yeah, there are a few pretty good ways to sort this now, but what a mess in 2011/12. I finally wrote the sticky in the audio forum that illustrated how the cables needed to be wired, and Red rolled out their own cable that worked.

The WC A-box works well -- kind of like what you describe. I use a Sound Devices Mix Pre-D as kind of a semi-pro audio module (it has these cool knob things Gunleik would like I rod-mount it when I'm recording audio to the camera without a real audio tech. And my primary audio tech has built a quick release snake to his mixer end carries headphone return as well. That gets Velcro-tied to a rod for strain relief.

 

[Phil Holland]

Do you have a link to the those cable clamps?

Any one of these will work, there are many brands:
Many Googles of Rod Cable Clamps

Attach to a rod of your choice, lock cable in, you got a nice floppy, yet secure XLR connection.

For extra strength you can loop the cable through both sides.

 

[D Fuller]

Do you have a link to the those cable clamps?

To be fair, I still don't know if you can plug/unplug the 3.5mm jacks when phantom power is on (doesn't it blow the sound board)?

Look at this. or this.

I've never heard of the phantom power problem you describe, but I've never tested it either. Perhaps someone who has could chime in on this.

Sorry- straying off topic here.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

The safest thing is multiple copies over multiple formats, digital and film, including b&w separations. And the digital data has to be cloned and migrated regularly. Then you are covered. But it's expensive to be that well-covered for the long term.

I did one of the first 24P HD features in 2000 -- there's an HDCAM tape master somewhere and a film-out to 35mm color interpositive, plus a dupe negative and some release prints. If nothing is done to preserve any of those elements properly and they just get re-discovered in fifty years in some vault, my bet is on the 35mm interpositive surviving over the HDCAM tape... but who knows.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Not a lot of support for my rear shell concept. Not surprised that the hard core camera geeks/RED experts here on RU have different perspectives/needs than the wider community.

I can also see why a completely redesigned camera body is seen as preferable by many - perhaps an Alexa body with a Dragon sensor...

IAC, I still believe that for a large segment of the marketplace creating an ENG-ish shell for the Epic brain that facilitates popular operational modalities would find traction at rental houses and in multi-cam scenarios. On sticks/dolly the larger form factor is a non-issue and for shooting off the shoulder balance is the crucial metric, not (within reason) weight. For hand held not on the shoulder, and a variety of other speciality rigs, just separate the brain from the shell.

In a perfect world we might have a dozen different DSMC modules to address various situations. In the real world, a "standard" shell that provides a bridge between the "nuclear reactor in a matchbox" and the established production ecosystem seems like the best way to overcome resistance. As an owner/operator one must always consider ROI on any "module", and, due to system familiarity, a few work arounds in the mix are acceptable. In the wider "industry", particularly beyond feature/narrative environments, ease of use and bulletproof interfacing with the rest of the production ecosystem is a critical requirement.

If it were up to me I would sell two versions of the Epic: 1) the current brain plus module option, 2) the current brain nestled into a "host" shell that offers specific ergonomics and connectivity capabilities sold as a "turnkey" system - this would add at least $20K and 6 lbs to the equation but I believe it would be very attractive option for a large segment of the marketplace. If the value proposition was state of the art image quality in a production friendly package for +/- $50K I think it would suit a lot of folks looking to go UHD/4K. At the moment, the F55 essentially owns what I believe will be a significant market segment over the next few years.

Obviously post is an issue in much of this discussion, but there's enough RED cameras in the world now that I fully expect the key vendors to upgrade post tools to handle R3Ds as easily as anything else. High resolution RAW image file handling, not just for RED, is rapidly becoming an expectation of proper post tools, and, thanks to all those gamers, the pixel processing hardware to enable it is already available

Cheers - #19

 

[Peter Moretti]

True that. But more than the connectors, the guys I work with hated the fact that they were mic level, with no line level option.

Just heard this complaint from SoundDevices about the Epic.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Blair...


Unsurprisingly: +1!

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

The ALEXA has been capable of this for a couple of years now. Hard-lined or wireless through a closed wifi network you can control the camera's menus and edit/add metadata when recording raw (via Codex). Additionally, you can incorporate a CDL server hooked up to a control surface (like a Tangent Element) and wirelessly transmit CDL color looks in real-time to the camera that are then recorded as tracking metadata every time the camera rolls. It's an intuitive, instantaneous, and industry-standard setup. The F65 can also work directly w/ CDL's but I'm not sure about wirelessly.

I would love to see RED as a company start to come out a bit from their proprietary pipeline and embrace the greater industry a bit more with things like CDL and open software implementation.

But thsi is so much less necessary with RAW - or I'd say even useless. Set time is extremely expensive - much better to calmly grade in a suite designed for that.

 

[D Fuller]

Not a lot of support for my rear shell concept. Not surprised that the hard core camera geeks/RED experts here on RU have different perspectives/needs than the wider community.

I can also see why a completely redesigned camera body is seen as preferable by many - perhaps an Alexa body with a Dragon sensor...

Cheers - #19

While the concept of another form factor for a second version of the Epic may be sound, I would hardly hold up the Alexa as a model for ergonomics. Yes, it's got buttons that ACs seem to like, but it's a top-heavy brick.

Problem is, there are about four really distinct ways of operating a camera, and they all have very different requirements for ergonomics:

> Dolly or Tripod, where as you say, size doesn't matter,
> Shoulder-mounted hand-held, where Aaton seems to be the best-regarded design ever,
> Non-shoulder mounted hand-held, where the small form-factor of the Epic shines if you can keep it from growing into a giant hairball of aks,
> Rigs like Steadycam, Movi, Octocopters, 3D, where, again, the Epic brain size works better than most other designs, and the aks are most part of the rig.

It's really hard to see a design that works for one serving the others well. (I've always thought that was why Aatons were popular with owner/ops, but were infrequent visitors to sets otherwise.)

That's why the modular system makes sense. But I think Mark P is right on target when he says the modules haven't been right. It seems nuts to have a Pro IO module with no knobs or meters. It's crazy that it has taken so long for power to get sorted out (and is it really sorted yet?) Why is Red fighting a single-handed battle against P-Tap? Sure it's a lame standard, but it's a standard that's very prevalent, and aren't there better battles to fight?

I love the Epic form factor, and for my kind of work, it's been brilliant. But I don't really have a whole existing ecosystem for it to fit into. In the industrial-scale world of TV production, they do, and I think an awful lot of the resistance to Red has stemmed from that.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

But thsi is so much less necessary with RAW - or I'd say even useless. Set time is extremely expensive - much better to calmly grade in a suite designed for that.

Not true. When you get 8-10 hours TOTAL for a 1 hour show in color grade - many times with more than one camera type - a solid CDL workflow is KEY. I would never use CDLs on an EPIC feature film - but on Episodic TV - ESPECIALLY when we get WIFI to the camera - CDLs is the way to go.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

While the concept of another form factor for a second version of the Epic may be sound, I would hardly hold up the Alexa as a model for ergonomics. Yes, it's got buttons that ACs seem to like, but it's a top-heavy brick.

Agreed. And it would be a mistake not have some nice, solid, oval user defined buttons on a smaller, redux of the PRO-IO Module. Sex appeal of Alexa has LITTLE to do with form factor and more with FUNCTION and FAMILIARITY.

 

[D Fuller]

Agreed. And it would be a mistake not have some nice, solid, oval user defined buttons on a smaller, redux of the PRO-IO Module. Sex appeal of Alexa has LITTLE to do with form factor and more with FUNCTION and FAMILIARITY.

Absolutely right. It's the ability to fit into the existing ecosystem -- both aks and humans.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

While the concept of another form factor for a second version of the Epic may be sound, I would hardly hold up the Alexa as a model for ergonomics. Yes, it's got buttons that ACs seem to like, but it's a top-heavy brick. (snip)
I love the Epic form factor, and for my kind of work, it's been brilliant. But I don't really have a whole existing ecosystem for it to fit into. In the industrial-scale world of TV production, they do, and I think an awful lot of the resistance to Red has stemmed from that.

I did imply that the Alexa was an ergonomic exemplar - not my intention. Of the recent digital cameras in this general space the Sony F55 with the R5 and a brick on the back is nicely balanced with a comparatively low center of gravity. IAC, if one were to commit to designing a shell as I have proposed it would certainly include managing balance and COG.

IMO, a camera that has a shell well designed for shoulder shooting that goes easily onto sticks/dolly - WITH all those darned ports, knobs, screens, etc easy to get to, verify and adjust - AND the ability to pull just the brain off when you need minimum form factor is the most straightforward and flexible solution. Stop messing around with ad hoc module solutions and just sell a "back half" rig that covers all the bases. Its my contention that for more broadcast oriented applications it would be an easy sell. The compact modules already developed will still be great for various stabilizers, jibs, etc.

Cheers - #19