Dragon Reality Check

[Shane Kelly]

I will bite on this...

Dragon as it is, is pretty bullseye for ME.

A RED in an "Amira"/Aaton formfactor would be very useful for many I work with.
With a 1080 prores 422/444 recording option on-board, (preferably not as a module but built in, a module is better than : KiPro/Pix etc... ), dual synced monitors/EVF/whatever, full-size BNC and XLR somewhere you can quickly access them with normal fingers, and preferably a more friendly "grab and shoot" formfactor, the C300/500 and the F55 would be less relevant cameras than they currently are and thus the market/practical use of the REDs would be a lot wider than it currently is.

And these points + 200fps to prores is gonna make the Amira a huge hit, despite its "inferior" specs.
DPs and producers all over the globe drool over it, and do not give a shit about it being "only 1080".
RED could have eaten that cake and swallowed it.

Nope. 4k out is not on that list, currently, but fullsize everything and grab and shoot to prores with different curves to different otputs, are.

Gunleik,
I think that you've hit the nail on the head here. I think that red have missed an opportunity by not releasing a second camera that addresses the issues that we've been wanting fixed since the epic MX came out. A camera with proper audio inputs, multiple bnc's, proxy recording, power taps for all the stuff that ends up being powered from the camera and, of course quieter fans. Although the epic is great as a small form-factor camera, a lot of the time it is built-up with accessories in order to make it work the way that commercial and feature crews need. Before anyone says "but the pro-io module and the other modules address your concerns", well, most of the modules were not even available until recently and the proxy module is not available yet.
I'm not putting down the Epic, I use the hell out of mine and rent it quite a bit but it just seems that red have concentrated all of their resources on 6k and forgotten about the problems with the form factor of the Epic.
I do think that the Amira will be a hugely successful camera, 1080p or not and this concerns me from a business point of view. We should also look at what the sony f55 can do right now - shoot many different formats from 1080mpeg or xavc all the way up to 4k raw with 4 bnc's and real xlr's. Red could probably have done this a year ago if they had collaborated with, for example, sound devices and made a pix 240 module.

As you said, Gunleik, the dragon is the right camera for you, all that I'm trying to decide on is if it's the right camera for me and my business. Does resolution and dynamic range trump everything else?

 

[Nick Morrison]

Gunleik,
I think that you've hit the nail on the head here. I think that red have missed an opportunity by not releasing a second camera that addresses the issues that we've been wanting fixed since the epic MX came out. A camera with proper audio inputs, multiple bnc's, proxy recording, power taps for all the stuff that ends up being powered from the camera and, of course quieter fans. Although the epic is great as a small form-factor camera, a lot of the time it is built-up with accessories in order to make it work the way that commercial and feature crews need. Before anyone says "but the pro-io module and the other modules address your concerns", well, most of the modules were not even available until recently and the proxy module is not available yet.
I'm not putting down the Epic, I use the hell out of mine and rent it quite a bit but it just seems that red have concentrated all of their resources on 6k and forgotten about the problems with the form factor of the Epic.
I do think that the Amira will be a hugely successful camera, 1080p or not and this concerns me from a business point of view. We should also look at what the sony f55 can do right now - shoot many different formats from 1080mpeg or xavc all the way up to 4k raw with 4 bnc's and real xlr's. Red could probably have done this a year ago if they had collaborated with, for example, sound devices and made a pix 240 module.

As you said, Gunleik, the dragon is the right camera for you, all that I'm trying to decide on is if it's the right camera for me and my business. Does resolution and dynamic range trump everything else?

Proxy module is dead fyi. Jarred mentioned that over the holidays.

 

[David Battistella]

I'm just curious about people's wants for today and if they can imagine it the future as well.

Phil,

ill bite on this. There are two kinds of wants. What I/we want and what paying clients are willing to pay for. Obviously, I/we/Redusers want it all and I think with epic and REDrocket, we pretty much have it all. We have an excellent camera with high Dr and low noise for the vast majority of shooting situations. We have RAW, the cornerstone and we have the RR legacy card that, combined with an external box can solve many on location, dailies situations etc., so that clients can be delivered edit ready copies along with originals. Perfect.

The perceived "downside" with RED has always been workflow, going back to, REDalert, redcine (PC only), red rushes, etc. those were workflow growing pains, and it was painful and many people did a lot to shield the "client" from that "problem" by working around things and believing in the program. Eventually, RED took control of RC X and has delivered a very viable and stable tool that helps to handle the post practical workflow of RED as well. For anyone used to a film workflow, dailies transcoding is an easy step, but the Alexa SHOOT>EDIT marketing was timely and they delivered what producers wanted, (even if it was perception). Solid, reliable image quality and a QuickTime (albeit lower quality) friendlier production solution. Producers had, by this time worked through shooting RED for TV and DPs wanted Arri cameras, so it slid back to Alexa in TV land.

Meanwhile, films continue to shoot RED because it more of a film style production system.

Now, dragon kinda breaks some of these workflows because it's not just a camera upgrade but a possible card upgrade as well. The card upgrade is more complicated with the release of new macs and TB2 technology sort of required. This is a bit like being at the beginning of 4k with the Red One where maximum computer power was required to push 4k, 6k dragon puts us back at that place.

I'm not worried about workflow for my setup, but I know there will be post houses out there having a crap attack that a legacy RR card which they bought only to deal with RED footage (something they maybe did not do for Alexa or Sony cameras) will now be a boat anchor in their machine. I'm sure the "hard to post rub" will return when all these guys find out their investment is EOL.

So to me, the camera can make amazing images, but "easiest possible post" will make it embraced in the widest circles. I know it works wit premier, I know it's fcp native, I know very App reads R3d's, but people (not me or us here) are gonna bitch, because they have to transcode or buy new hardware.

I personally think that it is strange that a stock Radeon 5770 video card works with dragon r3d material, but a purpose built card build by the manufacturer of the camera which sole purpose in a computer setup is to render and process R3D footage will function only with footage captured on the soon to be previous generation of camera.

so, here is what I'd like to see in the future. Why not let things flow downhill? Enable dragon support on legacy REDRockets now. Let all the big boys buy new RRX cards and let people start leveraging two or three used rockets in a system to process dragon footage and take their chances. RRX cards will be sold. It would be great to see a BT rocket program where 6 months warranty could be given on BT rockets that are not as fast or as RT as a RRX but allow you to run a few or them in an enclosure to run existing workflows for another year to soften the transition.

I think otherwise people will be buying new Mac pros and asking RED to open up the sdk on the GPU processing and there will be a lot of increased pressure to open up REDcode.

I'm just perceiving and guessing what the whispers might be out there in the whole world, but now seems as important a time as ever to talk about the most efficient ways to manage data and create RT environments for all levels of production.

Me, I'm totally happy and can adjust and I'll always be with RED, my fear, people drift away because something is "easier". Red has been amazing at listening and solving problems and creating solutions for customers. This passion that's gone into the sensor creation has to carry over to post as well. Most of it is perception and red is doing a great job of educating, but I can see post getting pissed if legacy rockets don't end up supporting dragon footage in some tangible way.

battistella

 

[Gunleik Groven]

As you said, Gunleik, the dragon is the right camera for you, all that I'm trying to decide on is if it's the right camera for me and my business. Does resolution and dynamic range trump everything else?

I do not have the answer to that... But my guess is that once you use one for a day or two, including post, the Dragon probably will speak pretty loudly for itself.

I did not plan to upgrade. I wanted to keep the Epic and get a motionmount.
Until I had spent some time with the prototype Jarred sent me to test.

Now, the Dragon is not like the R1 MX "a sensor upgrade", it is a whole new camera.
And the bigest difference in use is not "the numbers", but the feel.

It is just so gentle, that the Epic feels brute, in a way.
I would probably have wanted to upgrade even if it had the same pixelcount and DR as the Epic, but WITH the new image characteristics.

To me the most important is fidelity in colors, natural lightresponse, "creamyness" and the much improved on-board monitor signal. It just gives you a lot of the same confidence an alexa offers out of the box, and is still superior.

the added bonus are the extra stops in the high end, highlight and lowlight "rolloffs", the creamy overexposure and lower noise and my "surprise" bonus, how much better it whiteballances out of the box. And ability to capture mixed lighting better.

It is just a much more "rounded and generous" experience.

Dragon is "more".

 

[Shane Kelly]

I do not have the answer to that... But my guess is that once you use one for a day or two, including post, the Dragon probably will speak pretty loudly for itself.

I did not plan to upgrade. I wanted to keep the Epic and get a motionmount.
Until I had spent some time with the prototype Jarred sent me to test.

Now, the Dragon is not like the R1 MX "a sensor upgrade", it is a whole new camera.
And the bigest difference in use is not "the numbers", but the feel.

It is just so gentle, that the Epic feels brute, in a way.
I would probably have wanted to upgrade even if it had the same pixelcount and DR as the Epic, but WITH the new image characteristics.

To me the most important is fidelity in colors, natural lightresponse, "creamyness" and the much improved on-board monitor signal. It just gives you a lot of the same confidence an alexa offers out of the box, and is still superior.

the added bonus are the extra stops in the high end, highlight and lowlight "rolloffs", the creamy overexposure and lower noise and my "surprise" bonus, how much better it whiteballances out of the box. And ability to capture mixed lighting better.

It is just a much more "rounded and generous" experience.

Dragon is "more".

Great answer,thanks.
BTW, what do you mean by the improved on-board monitor signal?

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Now... "better" is a very subjective term, but if you place a Dragon besides an epic pointing at the same scene, the Epic image looks "thin" and the Dragon looks gorgeous... It is also a bit more lifted in the bottom, so you can feel more confident about what is happening there.

It is very easy to say: "I want the nice one" no matter I KNOW what I can get out of an Epic in post.

Gives more confidence.

I like that.

 

[Phil Holland]

Good stuff guys. This is more or less the type of conversation that Red likely wants to hear.

To reply to a few points:

"Just because I feel like it" is a poor choice of words. What I'm wondering is will I get back 10K of income over and above what I can make just keeping our Epic as MX, same clients and talent and so on in both cases.

That's a tough question. Our world now is mostly doing our own shoots, simply because renting out is a pain in the ass both in terms of promotion and client hand-holding, and because we have a ton of our own work and no time for much else. Maybe I will see some fun differences with Dragon, maybe I will see differences in image quality (that's the "feel like it" part…), but will my clients? Will they care to the tune of 10K more over 1.5 years? WIll my resulting reel be so much better that my income will go up 10 K?

I won't have all the answers for everybody in regards to the Dragon upgrade being "worth it or cost effective". However, I will say this. If your Epic or Scarlet with Mysterium-X is paid for, I'd say it's a no-brainer to upgrade via the 10K route. The tougher decision is for the Scarlet MX shooter going up to Epic Dragon as that's a bigger chunk of change, however, that is indeed the route I chose and worth it for me.

In terms of cash flow, well renting my gear without me shooting with it is a new thing for me in 2014. I'm doing it though and my camera's worked a bit so far. I can say the Epic Dragon body + lens mount + SSD Side Module is renting at a pretty healthy rate in LA at the moment and the cameras are in demand. That's been visible on gigs I've chase, but more visible on people who are now rushing to upgrade or simply rushing to purchase the Epic Dragon or Carbon Dragon. I'll tell you right now though if I can rent this body a good chunk of the year I'd be rather alright with that and I might even have to purchase a second camera to allow me to shoot.

I will bite on this...

Dragon as it is, is pretty bullseye for ME.

A RED in an "Amira"/Aaton formfactor would be very useful for many I work with.
With a 1080 prores 422/444 recording option on-board, (preferably not as a module but built in, a module is better than : KiPro/Pix etc... ), dual synced monitors/EVF/whatever, full-size BNC and XLR somewhere you can quickly access them with normal fingers, and preferably a more friendly "grab and shoot" formfactor, the C300/500 and the F55 would be less relevant cameras than they currently are and thus the market/practical use of the REDs would be a lot wider than it currently is.

And these points + 200fps to prores is gonna make the Amira a huge hit, despite its "inferior" specs.
DPs and producers all over the globe drool over it, and do not give a shit about it being "only 1080".
RED could have eaten that cake and swallowed it.

Nope. 4k out is not on that list, currently, but fullsize everything and grab and shoot to prores with different curves to different otputs, are.

We're on the same page. Dragon is in many ways nearly exactly what I've been waiting (hoping) for. Hell, I'd be shooting with something else if it wasn't.

My question regarding the Amira/Aaton form factor would be is do you feel that with a specific say "ENG Module" the camera can be built to the size with the feature set and connections desired or are you looking for a whole new camera? Me I personally like the idea of a small camera I can build larger if necessary and that's sort of the way I play now anyways.

Gunleik,
I think that you've hit the nail on the head here. I think that red have missed an opportunity by not releasing a second camera that addresses the issues that we've been wanting fixed since the epic MX came out. A camera with proper audio inputs, multiple bnc's, proxy recording, power taps for all the stuff that ends up being powered from the camera and, of course quieter fans.

Same question really. Do you feel an "ENG Module" that solves most of this would provide the solution your'e after? Or do you want a new body all together? I think a more advanced module would be the better solution personally, but that's just me.

The fan thing is done. Epic Dragon is quieter than other cameras now with the new fans and Adaptive Mode. That's not even part of the conversation now.

so, here is what I'd like to see in the future. Why not let things flow downhill? Enable dragon support on legacy REDRockets now. Let all the big boys buy new RRX cards and let people start leveraging two or three used rockets in a system to process dragon footage and take their chances. RRX cards will be sold. It would be great to see a BT rocket program where 6 months warranty could be given on BT rockets that are not as fast or as RT as a RRX but allow you to run a few or them in an enclosure to run existing workflows for another year to soften the transition.

I think otherwise people will be buying new Mac pros and asking RED to open up the sdk on the GPU processing and there will be a lot of increased pressure to open up REDcode.

Interesting stuff. I do know Red is constantly working and who knows what the future really holds for the old Rocket. I know one of the bigger questions involving the "OG" Red Rocket is that GPU acceleration with modern GPUs is going to match or exceed it's performance via the software debayer. That's literally one of the reasons the Rocket-X is being made and that's going to be crazy fast once the other channels get unlocked. I have a feeling based on what I've experienced with the Open CL GPU support that once CUDA is implemented fully our minds will be blown again by what's possible with the GPU acceleration.

I also dig that Red is working with Adobe to get that GPU acceleration into 3rd party tools. We're just on the tip of this iceberg really.

I do sometimes wonder if there's potential with Rocket-X + GPU acceleration on the horizon. That would be very cool. Who knows though.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Phil, I do think a redesigned body "all in one" ENG/EFP thing would have served many well.

I too am very happy with the current solution. For me.
But I also see why/where F55/C-300/500 are chosen (not to mention the Alexa) and cost of purchase/rental or image quality is often not the issue.

I think it would need to be redesigned, I cannot really see a "module" fixing it. The pro IO has not been extremely popular here at least for a few reasons. The Meizler looked like it would essentially make a "new cam", but has been ditched. Focus there was a lot on wireless things.

A redesign with balance, easy access for ACs, dual synced monitors, power to all accessories, gee... maybe they could just deliver it with the new ET remote focus (not for free, but as a package) etc. That would play well in many of the productions I have seen.

I dunno how that works in the US, but ACs are the ones who mostly set up and build the cameras. And they are also the ones to bitch the most about the REDs.
I would have (in a fantasy-world) gather a number of the busiest ACs out there, and had a little brainstorm WITH other cameras present, so they could show off what they like and what they dislike with the different design choices.

Even though other manufacturers have adopted some of the "box" philosophy, I think that probably is not the best argument for staying with it as the only choice.

The imagery is "there" now. Whatever anyone releases, it is hard to argue that the Dragon is "bad" in any way I can see.

ARRI has been very smart at repackaging the same camera in many ways and sell tons of the different versions to different users. I can see how that in one way defies REDs idea of innovation. On the other hand, I do not really see anything bad about that philosophy, as it broadens the userbase and penetrates a lot of new markets.

From a RED philosophy POV the Amira is a joke.
From a practical userbase expansion POV, it is pretty smart, I think.

It is after all a bit like what RED did with the Scarlet. "Same but diferent".

On a similar note (and I have no idea if this is at all possible)...

I would not trade the extra highlight tolerance for more lowlights. It seems like many would. That just gets me confused, but here is a thought experiment...

If it is possible to calibrate the sensor for the same DR it has, but two stops lower and package that in an ENG/EFP body without a total sensor re-design, that would probably fall well with a few doco guys.

Built in NDs seems like a more allround answer than motionmount to that challenge for now.
But maybe it could work with a built in motionmount, too.
(would def have to recalibrate the sensor for that.)

But back to the simple answer, from what I see in broadcast/doco style settings, a redesigned body that "just works" is probably a smarter move than "more modules".

RED is lovingly called the mekanocam for a few reasons.

As for me:
I strip it down to the bone as much as I can. When on my own.

 

[David Battistella]

Hey Phil,

I look at it like this. If the GPU is opened up enough and it handles Dragon for dailies, not as fast as RRX but 1.5x RT with RCX or resolve then it would be awesome. As far ass RR Legacy goes, the card still filled the need of looking at all the footage up to this point in RT so it's not EOL in that sense.

No doubt that for RT workflows RRX will be what is needed. I think MAXX digital will be making a box that will leverage the most out of RRX with a TB2 enclosure and that will be the very best way to go for people who need RT transcode and a portable solution.

As for the whole Aaton thing. OK, here is an original Aaton wooden handle with original switch wired to GPIO for start stop. With a v-mount battery and this, I don't miss the side handle so much. stripped down, rock and roll all day.

Battistella

 

[David Battistella]

@shane

i read your exchange with Gunliek. It struck me that The sad thing about the Amira is that watching Arri release a 1080p camera (probably geared directly at reality tv) while RED releases a 6k production system geared toward today forward, it just feels like one company makes hot rods and the other one specializes in trying to put on the breaks and keep,things the way they are.

4k tvs are here, Arri can't just hold on to 1080p like this and pretend it is not happening. So while they might have an ENG ish shoulder feel, I have to say I like reds thinking better.

in terms of creating what you want on the epic, I think that the innocinema/action products stuff, turns any epic or scarlet into the machine you are thinking about in about the most efficient, flexible and well thought out way possible. And it's still less expensive than the other guy.

Battistella

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

@shane

i read your exchange with Gunliek. It struck me that The sad thing about the Amira is that watching Arri release a 1080p camera (probably geared directly at reality tv) while RED releases a 6k production system geared toward today forward, it just feels like one company makes hot rods and the other one specializes in trying to put on the breaks and keep,things the way they are.

4k tvs are here, Arri can't just hold on to 1080p like this and pretend it is not happening. So while they might have an ENG ish shoulder feel, I have to say I like reds thinking better.

in terms of creating what you want on the epic, I think that the innocinema/action products stuff, turns any epic or scarlet into the machine you are thinking about in about the most efficient, flexible and well thought out way possible. And it's still less expensive than the other guy.

Battistella

ALthough I love Red cams and am excited about Dragon, this whole 4K thing means much less outside of Reduser.

Fact is Skyfall was shot at 2K and projected in Imax, and it did not look soft or off in any way. No way some 50 inch screen who knows how many feet away from the viewer is going to look any less sharp than an Imax screen.

I'll conceded that there is maybe some resolution benefit to 4K masters/screens over 2K, to some viewers at very unusually close seating distances. But what is not up for debate is that color, usability, and post costs and potential flexibility are important to EVERYBODY at both the production and viewing end, at all times, and Arri has won a big chunk of the game by talking about what is actually relevant to most people, not talking about what Jim, rightly or wrongly, thinks SHOULD be important.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

My guess is that the Amira will sweepstake all the lower end TV-Drama and a lot of the docos currently shot on C300/C500/F55 and also probably eat into a few RED productions.

4k is here and now, but is not yet a deliverystandard in TV. Will be for sure, but knowing some of the matrixes equipment for Broadcast productions go through, I would not call an S35 Alexa primarily a "reality" cam. That is also not how it is set up.

There are many good reasons to shoot Dragon over Amira for many productions. But I think it will be a huge hit and will see a lot of use in many applications.

When the Alexa was released, Arri compared it to 16mm and when I spoke with them, Nature docos was one of the things they predicted it would go into.

I think the Amira will get a ton of applications.

Even though it is basically the 4th (?) re-release of the same cam.

 

[Phil Holland]

As for the whole Aaton thing. OK, here is an original Aaton wooden handle with original switch wired to GPIO for start stop. With a v-mount battery and this, I don't miss the side handle so much. stripped down, rock and roll all day.

I like that wood. I'm not giving up my Side Handle though

ALthough I love Red cams and am excited about Dragon, this whole 4K thing means much less outside of Reduser.

Fact is Skyfall was shot at 2K and projected in Imax, and it did not look soft or off in any way. No way some 50 inch screen who knows how many feet away from the viewer is going to look any less sharp than an Imax screen.

I'll conceded that there is maybe some resolution benefit to 4K masters/screens over 2K, to some viewers at very unusually close seating distances. But what is not up for debate is that color, usability, and post costs and potential flexibility are important to EVERYBODY at both the production and viewing end, at all times, and Arri has won a big chunk of the game by talking about what is actually relevant to most people, not talking about what Jim, rightly or wrongly, thinks SHOULD be important.

Question. Do you think Jim is/was the only person who thinks 4K+ is important?

A good rule of thumb that I like to use on viewing distance is use the diagonal of the measured screen size as close to the optimal viewing distance. 40' screen, about 40' is pretty nice. 24" screen, same deal. Watch some of the videos from CES 2014 and see people's reactions to the 4K displays and footage. That tells you everything you really need to know. Everything about the last three CES shows tells you exactly where the industry is going.

I'm fine with Skyfall being rad at 2K - more importantly it was shot by one of the greatest talents in the industry and was just lovely. However, remember the original plan was for Arri to release Alexa4K one year after the Alexa itself. There's one big reason the didn't. Also remember that Arri makes a 6K/4K Film Scanner and a 4K Laser Recorder. I know it's hard to digest that 4K has been around since the mid 90's because it wasn't the "most used thing". The thing with 4K, specifically in relationship to S35 productions, is that it was the "right thing". A good deal of 2K productions go back out on the Arri Laser at 4K through a rather advanced up-res and sharpen algorithm. I digress. I get that 2K/1080p is good enough for some. There's still going to be many-a-1080p camera selling like hot cakes in the coming years.

Costs and corners are always cut, much of the industry that has developed over the last 10 years is actually a result of making compromises. Much of what's going on in the future of broadcast, streaming media, and digital cinema delivery is attempting to right so many of these wrongs. Hell, even audio has made tremendous advancements this past year.


Jim's not around here much these days and I wouldn't dare speak for him, but the original concept behind Red was to create a digital film alternative.

With the release of the Dragon sensor... I have finished my mission.

While I understand the various reasons for lower resolution workflows and deliveries, that's just never been the target. You can use Red cameras for that, no problem really. However, they can be used for so much more.

In terms of what Epic Dragon is, we are seeing and getting an idea of what it can do. Others have been taking notice. It's actually already excellent. It's more resolution, has a larger dynamic range, captures better color, is more compact, and has a more robust feature set when compared to an Alexa or F65. There's a few little things here in there that land in the pros for those other cameras, but the pros for Dragon are pretty damn nice.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Agree with all the above Phil!

Sometimes it is frustrating to see the reasons for RED cameras not being chosen, when they could have been superior for the job.

 

[AndreasOberg]

I will bite on this...

Dragon as it is, is pretty bullseye for ME.

A RED in an "Amira"/Aaton formfactor would be very useful for many I work with.
With a 1080 prores 422/444 recording option on-board, (preferably not as a module but built in, a module is better than : KiPro/Pix etc... ), dual synced monitors/EVF/whatever, full-size BNC and XLR somewhere you can quickly access them with normal fingers, and preferably a more friendly "grab and shoot" formfactor, the C300/500 and the F55 would be less relevant cameras than they currently are and thus the market/practical use of the REDs would be a lot wider than it currently is.

And these points + 200fps to prores is gonna make the Amira a huge hit, despite its "inferior" specs.
.

We love our epic but the practical side of the camera is a problem for us. I find it very hard to get a great on the shoulder setup that is not too big, heavy (and expensive). And not having a rocket means of course that transcode speeds is an annoynance. Also getting sound into the Epic is also a problem. Slow motion has been one of the biggest benefits with the Epic for us. Its incredibly useful but looks like Amira and others are catching up a bit finally.

However having a 4/5k image is VERY useful. I use it often for cropping the image, doing pans in the frame, zooms etc that of course would not be possible with a 2k sensor.
Of course if cameras like Amira makes sound much better, easier to have on the shoulder, easier to move to post this will have a real benefit to many.
/Andreas

 

[Brian Merlen]

considering all brands are releasing 4k cameras and tvs now i dont think it matters if the consumers need it or not. what matters is us selling it to them lol! so arri will no doubt have to follow suit once they are the one company without a 4k camera. whether the pixel peeping means anything or not in actual usability in the consumer small screen market is not the more relevant fact. also the projected 1.5 million 4k tv sales this year aren't jack in the long scheme of things, Arri can push another year or so if they wanna, but i think eventually they will wanna jump on board...and im gonna sit by and wait cash in hand cuz at the end of the day owner ops can just buy into both ecosystems... supposedly i got some cash coming in soon but i think im a little late to the game for a carbon dragon... it depends when it shows up really, but i might go for glass if arri doesn't drop a 4k camera when i got coin

 

[Shane Kelly]

@Phil,

I don't think that a module is ever going to solve the form-factor issues with the camera. A modular camera was a great concept but it seems that every module for the epic has had issues or was late or got cancelled. The handheld/eng form factor has stuck around for a reason - it just works. Everyone who has ever used a super16 Aaton understands this. I'm not saying that it's not great to have a small camera that shoots 5k and 120fps, that IS amazing but I think that it's time for a redesign here and to come up with another body. (probably in addition to the original)

@David,
I think that arri may make their 4k announcement at NAB. I agree that the Amira seems like a throwback and I wonder if it's similar to the scarlet in the sense that arri are using the technology that they developed for the alexa in a cheaper camera before they release a new 4k camera.
I agree on the innocinema gear but here's my question: How did red not recognize just how well the innocinema add-ons were designed and take something away from that. What issues did innocinema solve? - bnc's, power (camera and accessory), xlr inputs. It seems like they made this about 2 years before red released the pro-io. In the meantime, assistant cameramen/women were learning to hate the camera.

BTW a lot of my questions here are rhetorical and I think that this thread has taken an interesting turn.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

ARRI and 4k Alexa at nab is gonna happen. It will be expensive. What would be really crazy though, is if the price the Amira between $20-$30k. That would make huge waves.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

We would all have loved Epic as easy as either the best ENG cameras or a LTR/XTR/Prod...???

this was the biggest issue with Epic for me but... my current setup is better ballenced than a Alexa and as good as the best F55 rigs. It takes peices from lots of accersories manufacterers to get there (Red, ET, VF, WC, shape and Vocus)... that said it has been a long long road!

I am always stunned that there is not more noise on this forum about the ergonimc pain many have suffered... (and the comical frankenstein rigs just depress me... as much as they point to the resourcefulness of their creators it is sad that they are needed/attempted)

I, along with many I know, want a camera that I can lift from the floor and straight onto my shoulder THEN pop onto a tripod... BUT without a missed beat or taking away or adding anything!

I love pictures (and Red can deliver in spades here) BUT I dislike lots of extra 'stuff' and hate useless time wasting process.

I have finally solved most of my problems but I know Alexa guys don't have the same pain (or I admit flexibility).

If your directing and lighting concerns are 'from the lens forward' (which is me) Alexa often just looks easier..

We don't need to change the form factor now. Everyhting is solvable but it is confusing for most people as no one manufacturer is that intereted in makeing it easy (the only people so far who showed any bigger vision was Aeoncine) ....

a +2 module (not much bigger than the +1 but with a tiny bit more I/O and 4k out) is all I see as super desirable. (Yes I have a Pro I/O but I have never used it... but the +1 is pretty useful)

I am very excited by what I have seen from the Dragon. Nearly 2 stops more in the highlights 1+ stop more in the shadows, much much better colour and a s35 resolution that makes sense! It is like they where reading my mind....!! ... any people who don't see that as great are just living in a world I don't get.

finally completely happy!

Michael L

 

[Eric Haase]

@Phil,

I don't think that a module is ever going to solve the form-factor issues with the camera. A modular camera was a great concept but it seems that every module for the epic has had issues or was late or got cancelled. The handheld/eng form factor has stuck around for a reason - it just works. Everyone who has ever used a super16 Aaton understands this. I'm not saying that it's not great to have a small camera that shoots 5k and 120fps, that IS amazing but I think that it's time for a redesign here and to come up with another body. (probably in addition to the original)

@David,
I think that arri may make their 4k announcement at NAB. I agree that the Amira seems like a throwback and I wonder if it's similar to the scarlet in the sense that arri are using the technology that they developed for the alexa in a cheaper camera before they release a new 4k camera.
I agree on the innocinema gear but here's my question: How did red not recognize just how well the innocinema add-ons were designed and take something away from that. What issues did innocinema solve? - bnc's, power (camera and accessory), xlr inputs. It seems like they made this about 2 years before red released the pro-io. In the meantime, assistant cameramen/women were learning to hate the camera.

BTW a lot of my questions here are rhetorical and I think that this thread has taken an interesting turn.

Shane,

You're spot on about the modules. I don't even own one. I would maybe consider the +1 but it uses up the HDMI port which I sometimes use for a Paralinx Arrow. What's the point of the module if it also takes up a port? Pro IO is too big. I think the modular concept seemed good but has really not worked out at all. Maybe I just hesitate to make the camera longer...

Multiple BNC outs would be great with the option of outputting different gamma space on each output.

I'd pass on the on board audio- dual system sound is the way to go especially when you can sync dailies with a single mouse click. Just give me rock solid timecode. Why can't the camera hold timecode as well as a lockit box? I just don't get it!