Dragon Reality Check

[paul schefz]

my first experience with alexa was one from the other side...i was shooting stills on a huge studio set....i was using canons and i remember well how blown away i was when looking at the monitors seeing well lit images and having to crank my iso to 3200 to get anything....
i own an epic now and with all honesty...the 800iso is optimistic....canons iso is optimistic as well but in reality i would call epics iso 800 maybe a 400 or even less....
so any improvement will be welcome....i look at the dragon iso 2000 as a realistic iso 800 and that is fine with me....but i would really like to see it...and nothing, none of the files i have found (and i have downloaded every single frame made available here or anywhere else) have made me say: oh, yeah....clearly and extra stop!
i also haven't seen any comparison (other then chris's, which did not really tell me much, sorry)....maybe i missed them?
i am aslo not sure what the fascination is with the single match thing....give me a well exposed "normal" situation....outside (set the shutter at 1/2000s....who cares), foliage, sky, someone backlit, outdoors, get the sun in the frame....whatever....dragon vs epic both at 2000iso...done...

the name of this thread cracks me up....reality check/ and 80% of the posts are more or less: i don't have one, have played with a file, have seen some footage on vimeo and dragon is great, red is great....
i love my epic as much as anyone else and am absolutely looking forward to dragon but at this point, i would really like to see what i am actually looking forward to?

 

[Shane Kelly]

You get an entirely new camera for $10K. If that doesnt blow your fucking mind I dont know what will.

We just want to know what we are getting for $10,000 and if it will become a camera that is desired by productions or rather will it be preferred over Alexa or Sony. It's still $10k and a business decision must be based upon knowledge, not blind faith.

 

[Carlos Reyes]

We just want to know what we are getting for $10,000 and if it will become a camera that is desired by productions or rather will it be preferred over Alexa or Sony. It's still $10k and a business decision must be based upon knowledge, not blind faith.

Some people's expectations of this sensor are unreasonable. I think some people need to come down to earth.

The knowledge is there, download the R3Ds and play for yourself, or better yet rent a dragon body and test for yourself before making the upgrade. No one said anything about blind faith.

 

[Shane Kelly]

Carlos, I and many others simply want to know if it's worth the upgrade. Of course I'll do tests but until then my mind is not fucking blown, as you like to put it. It's a camera/sensor that has been hyped for 2 years, don't you think that may lead some people to have unreasonable expectations?
The Epic is a great camera, I've own one and have shot a lot on it but 90% of tv is shot on the alexa - will the dragon change that? That's worth questioning don't you think?

 

[Eric Haase]

Carlos, I and many others simply want to know if it's worth the upgrade. Of course I'll do tests but until then my mind is not fucking blown, as you like to put it. It's a camera/sensor that has been hyped for 2 years, don't you think that may lead some people to have unreasonable expectations?
The Epic is a great camera, I've own one and have shot a lot on it but 90% of tv is shot on the alexa - will the dragon change that? That's worth questioning don't you think?

Shane, I'm not sure a couple more stops in DR or a stop and a bit with equivalent noise (800 vs 2000) would warrant a TV show switching over to Dragon from Alexa. From my experience, the reason Alexa grabbed the TV market was primarily twofold- 1) Perceived ease of Alexa workflow vs Red workflow and 2) Arri's reliable reputation vs Red's initial unreliable reputation (problems with Red One). I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseam here and elsewhere and whether warranted or not, these 2 factors in reputation are hard to shake and may take a longer period of time believe it or not. Both of these issues are really no longer issues at all (except maybe the discrepancy in file size of Alexa vs Dragon when considering episodic workflow). Dragon may be a leap in sensitivity, color, and dynamic range but in the TV world I'm not sure most feel that this is really THAT lacking with the Alexa. I'd be surprised if any shows switch over. But maybe new shows will adopt it...

 

[Shane Kelly]

I agree with you Eric, I'm just using that as an example for Carlos. I'm debating the upgrade and if it's really worth the $10k. In relation to the epic vs alexa debate, I really wish that Red had taken the last 2 years to redesign the camera and put proper xlr's, multiple bnc's etc on the body but that's another post.
Just read your studio daily interview BTW, we've both come a way since MTV's "undressed"

 

[Eric Haase]

I agree with you Eric, I'm just using that as an example for Carlos. I'm debating the upgrade and if it's really worth the $10k. In relation to the epic vs alexa debate, I really wish that Red had taken the last 2 years to redesign the camera and put proper xlr's, multiple bnc's etc on the body but that's another post.
Just read your studio daily interview BTW, we've both come a way since MTV's "undressed"

Haha true! It's always good to see your name here and there and read your posts on reduser.

 

[Carlos Reyes]

Carlos, I and many others simply want to know if it's worth the upgrade. Of course I'll do tests but until then my mind is not fucking blown, as you like to put it. It's a camera/sensor that has been hyped for 2 years, don't you think that may lead some people to have unreasonable expectations?
The Epic is a great camera, I've own one and have shot a lot on it but 90% of tv is shot on the alexa - will the dragon change that? That's worth questioning don't you think?

I think the combination of two years of hype and lack of footage by now, January 2014, has led to a lot of frustration. People beginning to say they're worried etc.

Sure thats a great question, but there are way more factors that go into why a show chooses a camera than a camera test posted on REDUSER. We can speculate all we want but only time will tell if shows start switching over. Im sure many wont. If a show choses Dragon over Alexa, is that what's going to make this upgrade worth it for you? That to me is secondary and almost irrelevant, what matters is what the sensor is actually capable of.

I don't get the epic vs. alexa debate either, considering the cost difference. If the 10K isn't worth it to someone then their option is to sell there epic for 25-35K and buy a used Alexa for twice that? Or maybe get rid of camera all together and only rent, I don't know.

Im not saying you in particular Shane, I haven't called anyone out in specific, I didn't say everyone, I just think that SOME people aren't seeing much improvement, and maybe thats because of unrealistic expectations. I'm seeing a lot just messing around with the R3Ds. For example, Its hard to think of a scene that has actual measurable 16 stops of DR and people are underwhelmed when they see a shot that in its very nature doesnt have that much range to begin with.

 

[Carlos Reyes]

Also I think many would have welcomed a redesign as you mention, but then I think we can both agree that it'd be much more than $10K we'd be talking about.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

We just want to know what we are getting for $10,000 and if it will become a camera that is desired by productions or rather will it be preferred over Alexa or Sony. It's still $10k and a business decision must be based upon knowledge, not blind faith.

This is also my point of view. 10K can't be "just because I feel like" I have to have some hope of getting that much more money back within a reasonable amount of time over not upgrading.

 

[Phil Holland]

Couple questions for you guys that are useful for me, and perhaps useful for Red.

Also I think many would have welcomed a redesign as you mention, but then I think we can both agree that it'd be much more than $10K we'd be talking about.

I agree with you Eric, I'm just using that as an example for Carlos. I'm debating the upgrade and if it's really worth the $10k. In relation to the epic vs alexa debate, I really wish that Red had taken the last 2 years to redesign the camera and put proper xlr's, multiple bnc's etc on the body but that's another post.
Just read your studio daily interview BTW, we've both come a way since MTV's "undressed"

XLRs

Would potentially 4 full size XLR connections on a smaller module be sufficient?


BNC

Same question, and it sounds like you'd want this on the same module as those XLRs.

Something between a Pro I/O Module V.2 and a Meizler Module?


Proxies and other formats

How important is the ability to record proRes and other formats on camera or through a module. In 1080p? in 4K? Are 3rd party hardware solutions on this front good enough for your workflow?


REDCODE

GPU and Red Rocket-X acceleration are here and are going to improve drastically soon. In combination with 3rd party REDCODE support, do you feel this solves the need for proxies? I know some markets would favor a drag and drop deliverable, i.e. journalism.


Signal Out

I'm betting we'll see 4K out somehow at a future date. Do you care if it's wired or a wireless solution?

This is also my point of view. 10K can't be "just because I feel like" I have to have some hope of getting that much more money back within a reasonable amount of time over not upgrading.

I'm not feeling the Dragon upgrade for myself happened "just because I feel like" I needed it. The last big Alexa job I had was a $120+ feature and I spent a grotesque amount of time getting hot and heavy with that camera.

As it stands right at this moment Epic Dragon out performs the Alexa in the vast majority of image quality categories. That's pretty much that. Now there's a few things like proxy recording that have made Alexa very desirable for quick workflows, that I get. Much of the reasons the Alexa was preferred over Mysterium-X are now solved or better with Dragon. That's good news. The questions are for me will they want this level of better? Are they seriously not shooting 4K+ yet?


At it's core Epic Dragon and Red cameras in general have been purpose designed for cinema application. Now things have opened up a lot and people are using "digital cinema cameras" for every type of application. So I understand the desire to have more special needs and desires from the hardware. I'm just curious about people's wants for today and if they can imagine it the future as well.

 

[Adam Johnson]

I was hoping that Dragon lowlight capabilities would match or exceed that of the Canon Cinema line. But I don't know if this is ever possible in the near future, with RED considering it deals with the image in a totally different way with its RAW wavelet compression.

The C500 for example can deliver a fairly clean image up to about 15,000 ISO. But the difference is it is not RAW and the way it's processed in camera makes it cleaner...but not as flexible as RAW in post. I would however say the DR is on par with the MX sensor.

So my point is...not sure if we will be getting a high ISO/ASA RAW 4K+ camera anytime soon from anyone because it involves denoising and a different method of image processing in camera... But maybe the two can some how be married together. I'm not an engineer or know much about the super technical aspects so please excuse my ignorance.

 

[Matt Ryan]

I was hoping that Dragon lowlight capabilities would match or exceed that of the Canon Cinema line. But I don't know if this is ever possible in the near future, with RED considering it deals with the image in a totally different way with its RAW wavelet compression.

The C500 for example can deliver a fairly clean image up to about 15,000 ISO. But the difference is it is not RAW and the way it's processed in camera makes it cleaner...but not as flexible as RAW in post. I would however say the DR is on par with the MX sensor.

So my point is...not sure if we will be getting a high ISO/ASA RAW 4K+ camera anytime soon from anyone because it involves denoising and a different method of image processing in camera... But maybe the two can some how be married together. I'm not an engineer or know much about the super technical aspects so please excuse my ignorance.

Adam, check out this thread. We were just talking about C500: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?111082-Just-got-our-Dragon&p=1311371&viewfull=1#post1311371

From the Raw C500 footage, I'm not impressed. But it's just one test and from this test it is lacking detail and DR compared to Dragon. Obviously a side by side will most likely come ,but until then we have this.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Couple questions for you guys that are useful for me, and perhaps useful for Red.





XLRs

Would potentially 4 full size XLR connections on a smaller module be sufficient?


BNC

Same question, and it sounds like you'd want this on the same module as those XLRs.

Something between a Pro I/O Module V.2 and a Meizler Module?


Proxies and other formats

How important is the ability to record proRes and other formats on camera or through a module. In 1080p? in 4K? Are 3rd party hardware solutions on this front good enough for your workflow?


REDCODE

GPU and Red Rocket-X acceleration are here and are going to improve drastically soon. In combination with 3rd party REDCODE support, do you feel this solves the need for proxies? I know some markets would favor a drag and drop deliverable, i.e. journalism.


Signal Out

I'm betting we'll see 4K out somehow at a future date. Do you care if it's wired or a wireless solution?





I'm not feeling the Dragon upgrade for myself happened "just because I feel like" I needed it. The last big Alexa job I had was a $120+ feature and I spent a grotesque amount of time getting hot and heavy with that camera.

As it stands right at this moment Epic Dragon out performs the Alexa in the vast majority of image quality categories. That's pretty much that. Now there's a few things like proxy recording that have made Alexa very desirable for quick workflows, that I get. Much of the reasons the Alexa was preferred over Mysterium-X are now solved or better with Dragon. That's good news. The questions are for me will they want this level of better? Are they seriously not shooting 4K+ yet?


At it's core Epic Dragon and Red cameras in general have been purpose designed for cinema application. Now things have opened up a lot and people are using "digital cinema cameras" for every type of application. So I understand the desire to have more special needs and desires from the hardware. I'm just curious about people's wants for today and if they can imagine it the future as well.

"Just because I feel like it" is a poor choice of words. What I'm wondering is will I get back 10K of income over and above what I can make just keeping our Epic as MX, same clients and talent and so on in both cases.

That's a tough question. Our world now is mostly doing our own shoots, simply because renting out is a pain in the ass both in terms of promotion and client hand-holding, and because we have a ton of our own work and no time for much else. Maybe I will see some fun differences with Dragon, maybe I will see differences in image quality (that's the "feel like it" part…), but will my clients? Will they care to the tune of 10K more over 1.5 years? WIll my resulting reel be so much better that my income will go up 10 K?

MX saved money on lights and even removed the need for a tie-in in some cases, , so it paid for itself in a few months, just in that one simple way. The MX was better and more practical to shoot with in a way that was extremely obvious to even non-tech savvy clients. The MX upgrade was truly a no-brainer, and would have been at 10K (it was even less).

This time we have a much trickier situation, and much more saturated camera market filled with reasonable alternatives. I wonder if any clients would ever object to having their project shot on Epic MX and demand I rent a Dragon. Frankly, I doubt it, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I can charge $900 a day for Dragon, and only $500 a day For Epic MX (added onto the budget for our own projects) $400 right there means 25 days later I've broken even, and I'm having fun with my neato new sensor. But 25 days in my world is a LOT of days - as our work is 90% prep/meetings. But for some others these days would add up more quickly. AND my numbers could be WAY off.

I think for some Dragon is not a wise investment, for others it is, but there has been very little thoughtful discussion about just who these groups are, or advice about figuring out which group you as an individual might belong to.

Maybe time saved on switching ND filters does add up to $$ over the long haul. Set time is expensive. Maybe just that justifies my purchase. Not sure. What I do know is that the math is not obvious, and talking about it more intelligently than just saying "Red Rocks!" (not that you are doing that, but others are) is imperative.

 

[Nick Morrison]

"Just because I feel like it" is a poor choice of words. What I'm wondering is will I get back 10K of income over and above what I can make now with my MX Epic. That's a tough question. Our world now is mostly doing our own shoots, simply because renting out is a pain in the ass both in terms of promotion and client hand-holding, and because we have a ton of our own work and no time for much else. Maybe I will see some fun differences with Dragon, maybe I will see differences in image quality (that's the feel like it part…), but will my clients? Will they care to the tune of 10K? WIll my resulting reel be so much better that my income will go up 10 K?

MX saved money on lights and even removed the need for a tie-in in some cases, , so it paid for itself in a few months, just in that one simple way. The MX upgrade was truly a no-brainer, and would have been at 10K (it was even less).

This time we have a much trickier situation, and much more saturated camera market filled with reasonable alternatives. I wonder if any clients would ever object to having their project shot on Epic MX and demand I rent a Dragon. Frankly, I doubt it, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I can charge $900 a day for Dragon, and only $500 a day For Epic MX (added onto the budget for our own projects) $400 right there means 25 days later I've broken even, and I'm having fun with my neato new sensor. But 25 days in my world is a LOT of days - as our work is 90% prep/meetings. But for some others these days would add up more quickly.

I think for some Dragon is not a wise investment, for others it is, but there has been very little thoughtful discussion about just who these groups are, or advice about figuring out which group you as an individual might belong to.

Maybe time saved on switching ND filters does add up to $$ over the long haul. Set time is expensive. Maybe just that justifies my purchase. Not sure. What I do know is that the math is not obvious, and talking about it more intelligently than just saying "Red Rocks!" (not that you are doing that, but others are) is imperative.

I agree that $10 is nothing to sneeze at, but it does appear...to me...like we are getting a whole new camera. I'm in love with the Dragon imagery I've seen so far, and I have a feeling my clients will too. I expect to get more booked when I have a Dragon because my shoots will look better. My clients won't know "why", and I'll be happy to let them assume I've learned a few new tricks (a magician never reveals his tricks).

For me, Dragon is an investment in getting more work. I think clients will notice the difference - and I'm willing to invest in that faith.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

I was hoping that Dragon lowlight capabilities would match or exceed that of the Canon Cinema line. But I don't know if this is ever possible in the near future, with RED considering it deals with the image in a totally different way with its RAW wavelet compression.

The C500 for example can deliver a fairly clean image up to about 15,000 ISO. But the difference is it is not RAW and the way it's processed in camera makes it cleaner...but not as flexible as RAW in post. I would however say the DR is on par with the MX sensor.

So my point is...not sure if we will be getting a high ISO/ASA RAW 4K+ camera anytime soon from anyone because it involves denoising and a different method of image processing in camera... But maybe the two can some how be married together. I'm not an engineer or know much about the super technical aspects so please excuse my ignorance.

They can be now, the wedding is called a post-prod suite. That simple.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

I agree that $10 is nothing to sneeze at, but it does appear...to me...like we are getting a whole new camera. I'm in love with the Dragon imagery I've seen so far, and I have a feeling my clients will too. I expect to get more booked when I have a Dragon because my shoots will look better. My clients won't know "why", and I'll be happy to let them assume I've learned a few new tricks (a magician never reveals his tricks).

For me, Dragon is an investment in getting more work. I think clients will notice the difference. But that's just me.

Fair enough, but I'm not sure. Epic MX well graded looks great now. A buddy yesterday showed me some Epic MX footage and told me it was shot on Dragon, and I believed him. We were both amazed, and both even more perplexed about whether to upgrade as a result of my being fooled.

Again, if you do not control the grading of your footage, that's a different story, but my buddy and I both do, and nothing we shoot does not go through a grading process (not anymore anyway).

 

[paul schefz]

I don't think anyone is disputing that dragon is an improvement....in DR, in noise, 6k instead of 5k, better compression,...I would just love to see raw files from a simple side by side...at that point everybody can make a decision if the 10k are worth the improvement or not.....
i just received my mini mags and can now shoot 50fps at 5:1 instead of 6:1.... I can see that difference and that was absolutely worth it to me.....other people might be happy picking up used red mags right now...rubbing their hands....everybody wins....

 

[Ketch Rossi]

What is it that people are so worried about? I cant understand this obsession with "low light." Are people trying to light entire movies with a candle?

...

Some peoples expectations on here dont make any sense to me, and I guess hyping up the sensor for at least two years didnt help that situation.

...

Please let me know if I'm crazy or what I'm missing here.

Carlos, you bring up some good points which are in the mind of many here, myself included...

I for one, I have learned early on in life, at about age 11, that light was everything, when I shot my first roll of film and got absolutely nothing, so for my second roll I waited for the sun to be in the right position io illuminate the things I wanted to photograph, and I waited not hours but at times an entire day!!

Fast forward today, and Lighting has become an art to which I leave by, a thing that will always have nothing to do with the camera itself, yet while been completely part of and th elenses and aperture and settings chosen, light can not and will not ever be lifted out.

If and when lighting are not an option then Reflectors will be an absolutely MUST, dray or night.

Fact is that I always stress to light even during a strong daylight mid day sun, and not only via reflecting and re-directing the sunlight, but also by directly lighting the subject with at list one source light.

It is of course marvelous that Dragon can and does shoot well even with a single candle light, and it is just beautiful for some specific scenes that might come to play in a story, but overall it is simply ridiculous to continuously look for something so specific in a camera that already is giving that and more in a package that NO other camera is offering, and most likely it will not be able to offer for some time to come!!

I guess we just always want MORE, but some people most get at some point to understand that some times more is actually less...

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Couple questions for you guys that are useful for me, and perhaps useful for Red.





XLRs

Would potentially 4 full size XLR connections on a smaller module be sufficient?


BNC

Same question, and it sounds like you'd want this on the same module as those XLRs.

Something between a Pro I/O Module V.2 and a Meizler Module?


Proxies and other formats

How important is the ability to record proRes and other formats on camera or through a module. In 1080p? in 4K? Are 3rd party hardware solutions on this front good enough for your workflow?


REDCODE

GPU and Red Rocket-X acceleration are here and are going to improve drastically soon. In combination with 3rd party REDCODE support, do you feel this solves the need for proxies? I know some markets would favor a drag and drop deliverable, i.e. journalism.


Signal Out

I'm betting we'll see 4K out somehow at a future date. Do you care if it's wired or a wireless solution?

I will bite on this...

Dragon as it is, is pretty bullseye for ME.

A RED in an "Amira"/Aaton formfactor would be very useful for many I work with.
With a 1080 prores 422/444 recording option on-board, (preferably not as a module but built in, a module is better than : KiPro/Pix etc... ), dual synced monitors/EVF/whatever, full-size BNC and XLR somewhere you can quickly access them with normal fingers, and preferably a more friendly "grab and shoot" formfactor, the C300/500 and the F55 would be less relevant cameras than they currently are and thus the market/practical use of the REDs would be a lot wider than it currently is.

And these points + 200fps to prores is gonna make the Amira a huge hit, despite its "inferior" specs.
DPs and producers all over the globe drool over it, and do not give a shit about it being "only 1080".
RED could have eaten that cake and swallowed it.

Nope. 4k out is not on that list, currently, but fullsize everything and grab and shoot to prores with different curves to different otputs, are.