Dragon Reality Check

[Robert Ruffo New]

Personally I'd rather shoot Epic at 5K, Dragon at 6K, and then downscale both to 4k...and see that comparison...so we're seeing both cameras at their best!

yes - I've yet to see that comparison, along with S35 crop Vs S35 crop (as full 6K won't work with many cine lenses)

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

That's a good point. I do now remember that someone said 18:1 is now a usable compression ratio. If that's true then I have nothing more to say about the light sensitivity

Depends what you are shooting - and if you are finishing in 4K or HD. But you can certainly shoot with a higher compression ratio on Dragon and get the same/better results as EPIC MX - especially if you are going for an HD master - but - since you seem to a bit obsessed with low light sensitivity - I always suggest shooting lower compression anytime you might be fighting noise. There's a really big difference if you are finishing for 4K/UHD - and 6K down to 4K/UHD is actually a significant difference to 5K down to 4K/UHD. I'll try to shoot and post those MX vs. DRAGON raw files you are so obsessed about tomorrow

 

[Ken Wilson]

Jannard did not over promise or under deliver. Rather the opposite...

If you want to create images, create them.

Lights are a good tool for that.

+1

The majority of film makers/dp/cinematographers do not know how to use lights. Then they complain about the camera.

Since I got my Scarlets and then the Epics I say that every day! This is one rare rare company for me that is way under advertised and delivered for me way more than I expected for the money.

 

[Niko Pueringer]

I love the look of low-light shooting, and would love to see more comparisons and examples. What I've seen so far, to my eyes, has not presented quite as stark a difference as I was expecting, but I've been hesitant to draw any conclusions on the extremely limited amount of low-light examples available.

Mark, if you did a low-light comparison, that would be incredible. A street shot at night would be my vote.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

What I've seen so far, to my eyes, has not presented quite as stark a difference as I was expecting

Not sure what defines the "stark difference" you were expecting If you want to really see the advantage over MX - push the ISO's of each while you look at them both in UHD/4K. You can actually push even father - adding slight noise reduction to 6K Dragon footage - and still have same detail than Epic MX viewed in 4K/UHD.

 

[paul schefz]

Depends what you are shooting - and if you are finishing in 4K or HD. But you can certainly shoot with a higher compression ratio on Dragon and get the same/better results as EPIC MX - especially if you are going for an HD master - but - since you seem to a bit obsessed with low light sensitivity - I always suggest shooting lower compression anytime you might be fighting noise. There's a really big difference if you are finishing for 4K/UHD - and 6K down to 4K/UHD is actually a significant difference to 5K down to 4K/UHD. I'll try to shoot and post those MX vs. DRAGON raw files you are so obsessed about tomorrow

Looking forward to those files!

 

[Phil Holland]

I'm eating Thai food, so take anything I say with a grain of salt. "Stark" is an interesting word that caused me to think while chewing my Panang Curry.

I've written a lot about Dragon over the last few months. Looked real close at it as it developed into the camera that is shipping today. Thought tirelessly into the night about what the heck 6K would mean for production and how they would use the Dragon sensor real estate and various formats.

I've written more recently about the improved color, dynamic range, highlight roll-off, and the extremely improved IR filtration. Those lead to the more visible differences to me. For me they are rather glaring, for some they may not notice it at all. What is true is the image straight out of the Dragon is actually lovely. The added 6K resolution is there if you desire it. The larger format sensor is also a plus for many. No reason not to shoot at the lower resolutions and formats either. Just use what you prefer and you also get access to the higher frame rates.

I've read a lot about the wants and desires for a more low light capable camera. I understand the lustful yearning and call of the darkness. However, Dragon isn't something you'll get clean ISO 25600 or higher out of. It's just not designed to do that and there is no on board noise reduction. However, Dragon from ISO 250-2000 is great. ISO 3200-5000 I think leave an interesting and usable texture and of course it could be removed with noise reduction if you'd like, which by the way benefits from having higher resolution source material. Me, I'm shooting mostly in the 500-800 range, though the last time I was shooting I shot all ISO 2000 which worked nicely. I'm shooting in that range because I do horrific things to images in post because I like to push that latitude around. Things that I wouldn't do if rating midtones at ISO 6400. That would be crazy talk.

Side note. Some of these UHD 4K displays are ruthless. That on board noise reduction that certain cameras have, which has been mentioned earlier in this thread, destroys a good chunk of what the allure is of 4K. Just like with the HD cameras, not all HD is created equally. These higher resolution cameras demand quality capture formats and operating techniques to get the most out of them. Similar to the jump of higher resolution DSLRs actually.


Back on track. All of these tests, sample images, experiments..... And there's one thing that's actually harder to explain. It's a bit intangible, but it's something clearly Red has put the work into in developing Dragon. You see it when shooting under crazy conditions. Ambient/mixed lighting, overexposure, crushed curves, shooting and working chaotically. Something we haven't been doing for some time now. You see it in the skin as well. That thing is that Dragon itself doesn't have a very digital looking fingerprint at all. There's an analog feel to the footage, heck it "feels" like footage again to me. There's a certain hint of that film-like magic in there. Cleaner and higher resolution than Super 35mm overall, but straying away from the general look of Mysterium-X. It's so difficult to describe, but those who shoot often it's the first thing you notice. I can understand how it's been achieved through the use of calibration and the placement of the sensor's raw dynamic range potential and vastly improved color. It can be rationalized and explained really, but it's there and that's the really good stuff. This is the stuff that matters in reality.

I guess another thing to note is that there isn't another camera on the market right now that can do what Epic Dragon can. But, that's squarely in the realm of "how much do you actually need". For me, it's scratching a lot of my itches in what I want out of digital cinema camera.

However, there's other tools coming. Red still needs to push. Dragon is here now and will be in command for a long while. It's working a lot here in LA. The buzz is spreading. Much larger folks than myself have seen and shot with it now. They see the potential. Others will too.

The movies are coming being shot by some of the industry's best. If that's not telling I don't know what is.

 

[Phil Holland]

Heh. Sorry for the long post, but this damn Thai food gets me going. It's a little spicy.

 

[Eric Haase]

What is it that people are so worried about? I cant understand this obsession with "low light." Are people trying to light entire movies with a candle?

For me it's not about shooting with low light, it's about more choices. Clean images at higher ISOs let me soften the light while using smaller units. It lets me shoot higher frame rates with the same units instead of struggling to achieve exposure or low noise. It lets me shoot deep stops to carry focus in night interior or exteriors. These are lots of choices we've never had before and they are all pretty exciting. For shooting films with ambient light in almost all lighting situations at 24fps, we are already there at ISO 800 at T1.3 or T2.0 lenses, and have been for a couple years now. But we can push things much farther and do things we've yet been unable to if we can get 16+ stops range, nice color reproduction, and super clean images at 3200, 4000 and 6400 ISO. That would be amazing.

 

[Carlos Reyes]

For me it's not about shooting with low light, it's about more choices. Clean images at higher ISOs let me soften the light while using smaller units. It lets me shoot higher frame rates with the same units instead of struggling to achieve exposure or low noise. It lets me shoot deep stops to carry focus in night interior or exteriors. These are lots of choices we've never had before and they are all pretty exciting. For shooting films with ambient light in almost all lighting situations at 24fps, we are already there at ISO 800 at T1.3 or T2.0 lenses, and have been for a couple years now. But we can push things much farther and do things we've yet been unable to if we can get 16+ stops range, nice color reproduction, and super clean images at 3200, 4000 and 6400 ISO. That would be amazing.

Cant argue with anything you're saying, but it seems to me that Dragon gets us there. Unfortunately I haven't had the chance to shoot on it yet and do my own tests so I'm just going off what Im seeing here. Also if necessary a little neat video on a 6K red down sampled for 2K delivery (hell even 4k) should hold a lot of detail.

All I'm saying is that it seems some people expect to be able to shoot in a dark alley with some faint street light and have a perfectly exposed clean 6400 ISO image as if it had been lit with large sources. I don't think thats possible, but what I've seen so far indicates that Dragon indeed does a great job at seeing into the shadows, and is as sensitive a camera as has ever existed in terms of what its achieving at these low light levels. Ive seen footage from other cameras shots at ISO 20,000 that were "clean" but honestly looked like shit. The color accuracy and amount of detail in some of the low light dragon footage Ive seen are really promising.

 

[Eric Haase]

Cant argue with anything you're saying, but it seems to me that Dragon gets us there. Unfortunately I haven't had the chance to shoot on it yet and do my own tests so I'm just going off what Im seeing here. Also if necessary a little neat video on a 6K red down sampled for 2K delivery (hell even 4k) should hold a lot of detail.

All I'm saying is that it seems some people expect to be able to shoot in a dark alley with some faint street light and have a perfectly exposed clean 6400 ISO image as if it had been lit with large sources. I don't think thats possible, but what I've seen so far indicates that Dragon indeed does a great job at seeing into the shadows, and is as sensitive a camera as has ever existed in terms of what its achieving at these low light levels. Ive seen footage from other cameras shots at ISO 20,000 that were "clean" but honestly looked like shit. The color accuracy and amount of detail in some of the low light dragon footage Ive seen are really promising.

Yes, it's promising and is a big achievement for sure. It's always good to push the camera manufacturers further and let them know we want even more. It would be incredible to be able to shoot a super clean, practically lit night exterior at T8 if we wanted to. I think we were all hoping 2000 would be the new 800 in terms of noise based on some of Jim's original comments.

 

[Brian Merlen]

i played a lot with the dragon r3d files provided here on RU, and I am impressed and happy to get one when its available, and i don't give a damn what anyone has to say at this point lol! the files speak for themselves in their extensiveness. quite impressive, i never played with redcine so much in my life guys thank so much!! def even more so in that the color science is still a work in progress very much and always improving... in conclusion i am willing to go out 10k on a credit card with no job for this upgrade, or w/e the hell i have to do. 18 months no interest should be wayyy easier then the 7 i just did on my epic!!! geez that was poor planning lol!

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

What is it that people are so worried about? I cant understand this obsession with "low light." Are people trying to light entire movies with a candle?

Not a candle, but I've fought 800ISO before with a 1k being insufficient. If you want large silks you have to go to at least 2k or 4k a lot of the time. Smaller, more portable and less power intensive lighting packages will be great. LEDs are still really spendy for quality lights.

 

[Carlos Reyes]

Not a candle, but I've fought 800ISO before with a 1k being insufficient. If you want large silks you have to go to at least 2k or 4k a lot of the time. Smaller, more portable and less power intensive lighting packages will be great. LEDs are still really spendy for quality lights.

Agreed, but It totally depends on the scene you're trying to light, how much space, the kind of lighting etc. I too have found a silked 1K insufficient at 800 ISO but Ive also found a couple of 1x1 litepanels dimmed to 40% just enough, it depends on the scene. And this is on MX. Ive been messing around as of late with lowlight stuff and I'm more often than not astonished at how clean my blacks are because everyone says MX is noisy. If you expose it right in camera and dont have to lift the image too much in the grade I feel great low light can be achieved with MX.

I was always very weary about letting my goal posts go when it came to underexposing because I was afraid of noise, a lot of people on here complaining. On this shoot this scene was supposed to take place at sunset but we ran out of light it and we weren't going to be able to get the actors to schedule another day. I convinced the director to let me at least try and cover the scene close and with a couple of LEDs. In the end she was very happy with the footage and was actually happy the sun had came down because the night gave the scene a stronger dramatic effect (Although I do think the grade came out a little funky and looking back would have played around more to get nicer skin tones) Shot on scarlet at 4K with two litepanels. I know its a close shot and everything, but I couldnt believe how clean this clip plays back, the noise is there but not noticeable unless you look closely and it looks more like grain than anything.

This is lit by a 1K with a silk, and a small 650 dimmed on a pigeon for a little backlight, and the practical in the back, Scarlet 4K. I was worried because everyone talks about tungsten being noisy and it can be, I tried my best to balance it, my underexposure goal post still had enough red for me to be worried, and yet the clip has almost no noise and looking at it now I wonder if I might have over lit it!

No denoise on either.

Ive found that ever since I started being real OCD about my black shading, and trying my best to nail my key to fill ratios on set and not in Resolve, noise has not been an issue.

These stills are screen shots from the H.264 exports, the R3Ds are even cleaner. Im learning more every day, and don't pretend that these two clips are at the level of the many DPs I look up to, both on REDUSER and elsewhere. Still Im extremely happy with what MX is doing for us.

If dragon is giving the kinds of images we're seeing with candles and matches, I cant wait to see what it'll produce with a silked 1K. I imagine and hope much better than what MX offers.

 

[Álex Montoya]

Dragon is very cool. Can't wait.

 

[ericyoung]

Better low light low noise performance is useful in all sorts of situations where the shooter has limited or no control of the lighting. Eg. events, wildlife, documentaries, night time-lapse, etc.

Narrative drama makers or studio shooters here often seem to forget they are not the only users of Red cameras.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Let's use film as an example. as that starts being relevant.

Let's say, just for the sake of the argument, that film captures 16 stops, independently of ISO.

So a 50 ISO film and a 6400 ISO film both captures 16 stops and a reasonably clean and can work under Tungsten and daylight.

Just for the sake of the argument.

To reproduce that in a single sensor, You need a 16 stop sensor + 1 stop headroom for whitebalancing + the 7 stop difference between 50 ISO and 6400 ISO

In effect: a 24+ stops camera to cover "all" bases.

And my guess is, that that will eventually come.

What RED has done with the Dragon, is to develop a 16+ stops camera with incredible fidelity in most of its range, from very low to white.
And that range is placed in an an exposure area which is very useable for very many, I would think.

Being on set with the MX, the NDs to protect the highlights has constantly been more of an image-quality issue, than night exteriors.

With the Dragon BOTH those ends are extended vastly, AND the image is useable and pleasing in a much wider range than on the Epic.

To be a bit conservative:

The Epic had about a stop of playroom for a technically pleasing image. for any given image type, and the Dragon has about 3-4 stops of similar playroom.

That MAY not sound like a lot, but if you start to run the numbers on that, that is 8-16 times the levels to play with. Which kind of represents the "feel" of Dragon over Epic. It is not "little" or "insignificant".
Add the "juice" factor to the colors that Phil and I am talking about, which kinda just needs to be felt, and it is not at all bad.

Now, as to ISO vs noise...

When I checked the Alexa vs the MX, noise per pixelgroup at base ISO (800) was very similar at any given exposure.
And that is also what I see in the Dragon.

And that kinda makes sense. ISO 800 has a predictable noise-level at about "this".
Which is good, as it makes it easier to intercut different cameras etc.

Still the Dragon is actually in practical terms a lot LESS noisy when downsampled to 4k or HD.

And the further you alter the exposure from an "MX" exposure by adding and taking away light, the better the Dragon looks vs MX.
Which = creative freedom...

The 16+ stops of the Dragon could probably have been used for more lowlight sensitivity at the cost of highlight tolerance.

This is a design choice. Whre do we use our DR?.
It has to be answered somehow.

IMHO RED has made a very good choice by giving us more everywhere

And all this said, it is not the pixelcount or DR in itself that makes me dig the Dragon, it is the image-feel.



Best

G

 

[Denis Buhot]

Narrative drama makers or studio shooters here often seem to forget they are not the only users of Red cameras.

+1... incredibly so... A side to side test would indeed make great sense, and I confess I personally had come to believe we would be able to shoot at iso 2000 with a level of noise comparable to MX at 800 . I still hope so !

 

[Gunleik Groven]

+1... incredibly so... A side to side test would indeed make great sense, and I confess I personally had come to believe we would be able to shoot at iso 2000 with a level of noise comparable to MX at 800 . I still hope so !

There are a few side-by sides out here, and more will come...

You have to develop them to similar delivery, to get the info you want.

But the info is pretty much out there.

But you cannot get the "feel" of the difference without shooting both...

And it seems we all agree, that there is less noise at lower exposures in finished images.

 

[Denis Buhot]

And it seems we all agree, that there is less noise at lower exposures in finished images.

That's right, Gunleik ! There seems to be an overall agreement about a lower noise-floor and "less" noise However, I feel that 2000 looking like 800 with respect to noise is not quite "less" noise... rather "much less noise". A real gap indeed, especially when iso 2000 is not a chosen setting, but a compelling need to get a correctly exposed shot. Is dragon the much-awaited sensor that will make epic the perfect camera for efp/eng, wildlife, etc. ? I really hope it is.

I should already know from what has been posted, but the fact is that some of us are having trouble dowloading already posted low-light footage. I, for instance, never get to a complete download. I'd love to be simply able to download sample stills, of a bigger size than those available so far, so I really feel I can judge. And getting hands on a dragon epic for testing purpose is not easy around my place !