DRAGON plus DaVinci Resolve 10 plus Red Rocket-X = real time renders

[Neil W. Smith]

So this afternoon I decided to take a different approach to putting the RR-X card through its paces this time using latest version of DaVinci Resolve 10 ... went for a typical digital dailies kind of a workflow using 11 minutes of DRAGON 6K .r3ds from 'The Red Dress':

1) put 38 DRAGON clips (just over 11and half mins) into Resolve 10 with Timeline resolution set to 6144x3160
2) set RED Camera RAW settings to Full Res. Premium - same with Playback quality
3) did a three node RAW to Lin one light for ProRes HD dailies
4) used FCP X easy setup on Resolve Delivery page - set 'Force debayer res to highest quality'

Pressed the 'Start Render' button ... render speed out of Resolve was a steady 23 to 25 fps on Full Res. Pemium!

11 mins and 28 seconds of DRAGON 6K .r3ds took 11 mins and 50 seconds to render out to ProRes 422 HQ.

Changed the setting to 720p H.264 for iPad Dailies ... same thing ... steady 24fps at Full. Res Premium.

So not only can you watch 6K DRAGON footage playing back at real-time speed in FULL debayer you can also render out at real-time ... pretty damn amazing if you ask me.

All I need now is a 6K monitor

Also if you look at the 'Get Info' for the three versions it works out that 38 clips of 11 mins of DRAGON .r3ds comes in around 110 GB, same clips in ProRes422 1080p come in at 15 GB and same clips in 720p H.264 at just under 2GB ... very efficient data pipeline for 6K online to HD offline in FCP X and back to grading 6K RAW in Resolve.

Will be taking my RR-X card and the DRAGON clips to the SMPTE Conf and CreateaSphere ETE Expo if anyone wants to come along and see for themselves how smooth 6K playback at full rez can be with a RR-X card and DaVinci Resolve ... I'm sure Rob and his engineers will soon have RCX-P running at real-time speeds.

At SMPTE we're on Booth #108 next to Blackmagic and at CreateaSphere we'll be on Booth #506 ... we'll be mainly demoing 4K workflow on FCP X and Resolve 10 but if peeps want to see Rocket-X and DRAGON footage in action, be more than happy to put the clips up on the UHDTV monitors.

Attached are some screen grabs and photos taken with my iPhone:

Neil

 

[Neil W. Smith]

Calling Steve Shaw ...

Calling Steve Shaw ...

Steve,

In playing around with the DRAGON footage in Resolve 10 this afternoon I was struck by not only how wide the dynamic range is but also the subtlety of the gradations in the RAW .r3ds especially in the skin tones.

Don't suppose you have a chance to play with any DRAGON RAW footage yet and come up with one of your magic RAW to Lin LUTS ... I'd be interested to see how you approach characterizing the curve in order to keep the skin tones naturalistic ... if you don't have any .r3ds clips I'll check with Jarred to see if we can get you something to play with.

Let me know if you're interested in experimenting with some RAW to Lin LUTS for DRAGON ... will be useful for a quick one light for dailies processing ... something that still captures the subtlety and nuances of the RAW DR but puts the image in a Lin space for editorial.

Of course this is all on the understanding that we're still waiting for Graeme to deliver Color Science 3 ... in the meantime RedGamma3 and RedLogFilm seems to give us quite a bit of latitude for playing with what the DRAGON sensor sees.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Good newa Neil.

RAW to LIN luts...

Du you mean Cineon to REC 709?

 

[francisco santos]

great to hear cause my davinci workflow is killer right now!!!

 

[Neil W. Smith]

DRAGON LUTs and Resolve ....

DRAGON LUTs and Resolve ....

Good newa Neil.

RAT to LIN luts...

Du you mean Cineon to REC 709?

'Cineon to Rec. 709' is just one of the many LUTS that come bundled in Resolve ... each of them are matched to a particular Camera or Film Stock ... I tried all of them out on the DRAGON footage this afternoon ... usually the 'Arri Alexa to Rec. 709' gets me in the ballpark with EPIC RAW (even though saturation level is way too high and has to be dialed down) but with the DRAGON clips that Ketch shot, none of the LUTS seemed to do them justice ... funnily enough the 'Sony Slog to Re. 709' was fairly pleasing ... in the end I went for my three node grade using a mixture of things but I'm not a color scientist which is why I put out that call to Steve Shaw.

The curves in RedCine-X are OK for getting a high contrast image that doesn't frighten off Producers (a Log image seems to scare the shit out of them) but I'd like to see a Resolve LUT that preserves the subtle gradations of the DRAGON grey scale range at the same time as squeezing the curve into a Linear space like Rec. 709.

Neil

 

[Shiblon Wixom]

You shouldn't need to apply a LUT at all if you do a color node separation and primary/secondar mix starting with RedLogFilm, +/- saturation and contrast. Just make sure you set the RMD to a white balanced and neutral grade before importing/loading the clip in Resolve 10 or before transcoding to RedLogFilm in RedcineX Pro.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

IC what you mean now, Neil.

PM Bjorn Becket!

 

[Neil W. Smith]

a Dailies LUT for Resolve and DRAGON ...

a Dailies LUT for Resolve and DRAGON ...

You shouldn't need to apply a LUT at all if you do a color node separation and primary/secondar mix starting with RedLogFilm, +/- saturation and contrast. Just make sure you set the RMD to a white balanced and neutral grade before importing/loading the clip in Resolve 10 or before transcoding to RedLogFilm in RedcineX Pro.

Agree with your observation, Shiblon, as a general approach for grading DRAGON .r3ds but in the posting above for Steve Shaw I specifically mentioned that I was looking for "a quick one light for dailies processing" for DaVinci Resolve ... typically on a feature we'll get around two hours of RED footage per day come in for dailies (assuming a one camera shoot) ... we need to sync the audio and video, apply a RAW to Lin LUT, set any necessary burn-ins and watermarks and then render out the different versions and get them off to Editorial, Producers and DP asap.

We usually design a few LUTs that cover things like daytime exteriors bright; daytime exteriors dark; interior bright; interior dark and any specific "looks' that the DP is trying to achieve in particular scenes, e.g., a dream sequence.

Once we have a series of LUTs that everyone is happy with our Dailies Editor can apply those quickly to individual takes and start the render processing ... the whole point of Dailies (Rushes in the UK) is to get the day's shoot out of the door as quickly as possible so every authorized person can see what was shot the day before and Editorial can start the rough assembly immediately.

Your suggestion is fine for final grading (and we have other approaches to dealing with grading RED RAW) but for Dailies you need something 'quick and dirty' that gets the image look in the ball park easily with only some minor tweaking as needs be.

Checking the audio sync on two hours of clips takes a while, plus the real-time rendering time takes a couple of hours, then the FTP upload for iPad Dailies, plus the data transfer time to the shuttle drives all add precious minutes .... we need something that the Dailies Editor can use to get close the "look" without having to hand grade each and every take ... hence the requirement for a RAW to Lin LUT for DRAGON footage.

There are different ways to "cook" LUTs and Steve Shaw is an expert chef .... given the wide dynamic range of the DRAGON sensor I'm interested in something that preserves the integrity of the complete "flat" range while adding contrast and linearity.

DaVinci Resolve has some very powerful tools for syncing audio and video, applying LUTs and burn-ins and rendering out multiple versions of deliverables in a single batch ... DaVinci Resolve costs $1000 .. the other piece of software which we use for Dailies processing, Express Dailies from ColorFront costs $15,000 ... both pieces of software are terrific for processing dailies and get the job done super fast ... both utilize LUTs to get the job done quickly and efficiently ... crafting LUTs is both a science and an art ... Steve is one of those rare breeds that has mastered both.

Neil

 

[Sidney L. Plaut]

'Cineon to Rec. 709' is just one of the many LUTS that come bundled in Resolve ... each of them are matched to a particular Camera or Film Stock ... I tried all of them out on the DRAGON footage this afternoon ... usually the 'Arri Alexa to Rec. 709' gets me in the ballpark with EPIC RAW (even though saturation level is way too high and has to be dialed down) but with the DRAGON clips that Ketch shot, none of the LUTS seemed to do them justice ... funnily enough the 'Sony Slog to Re. 709' was fairly pleasing ... in the end I went for my three node grade using a mixture of things but I'm not a color scientist which is why I put out that call to Steve Shaw.

The curves in RedCine-X are OK for getting a high contrast image that doesn't frighten off Producers (a Log image seems to scare the shit out of them) but I'd like to see a Resolve LUT that preserves the subtle gradations of the DRAGON grey scale range at the same time as squeezing the curve into a Linear space like Rec. 709.

Neil

a bunch of people here have been saying for years a RED LUT is sorely needed... implemented in resolve or what ever app you use...

 

[Phil Holland]

Well that speed is certainly handy!

I've made a few RED LUTs, although I approach this a bit differently with raw material overall. I'm holding off on generating any new ones until I have Dragon in my hands as I need to shoot the appropriate material to generate them. Also, waiting on the new color science as well.

I did run my last Dragon shoot through a REDLOGfilm LUT and pumped it into a Kodak 3D LUT and finished with a print stock emulation. I post more info on that Monday when I upload the final grade on that piece.

 

[M Most]

... usually the 'Arri Alexa to Rec. 709' gets me in the ballpark with EPIC RAW (even though saturation level is way too high and has to be dialed down)

That's because you're using a LUT that has the Arri color matrix built in. If you want to build an appropriate LUT for RedLogFilm footage using the Arri LUT builder you need to build one without the color matrix. In other words, on the Arri site, enable the Advanced tab, and select Log C Extended to Video Extended, and under Color Space select None (it's the default). I would also advise selecting a setting of 2 for the Knee. That will generate a LUT that gets you a proper, sensible result. Assuming the exposure is reasonable it should give you a very good "one light", requiring at the most only a slight exposure (offset) change.

If one is going to use these things, one needs to understand what they are and how to build and use them.......:nono:

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

Well that speed is certainly handy!

I've made a few RED LUTs, although I approach this a bit differently with raw material overall. I'm holding off on generating any new ones until I have Dragon in my hands as I need to shoot the appropriate material to generate them. Also, waiting on the new color science as well.

I did run my last Dragon shoot through a REDLOGfilm LUT and pumped it into a Kodak 3D LUT and finished with a print stock emulation. I post more info on that Monday when I upload the final grade on that piece.

That would be sweet to see.

If you have time a tutorial of your process would be great too. I am more of a dp/editor and am not quite up on lut on the post side of things, especially in resolve.

 

[Medavoym]

Also if you look at the 'Get Info' for the three versions it works out that 38 clips of 11 mins of DRAGON .r3ds comes in around 110 GB, same clips in ProRes422 1080p come in at 15 GB and same clips in 720p H.264 at just under 2GB ... very efficient data pipeline for 6K online to HD offline in FCP X and back to grading 6K RAW in Resolve.

Neil

So 1 minute of Dragon 6K footage is 10GB?

 

[Neil W. Smith]

cooking LUTs

cooking LUTs

That's because you're using a LUT that has the Arri color matrix built in. If you want to build an appropriate LUT for RedLogFilm footage using the Arri LUT builder you need to build one without the color matrix. In other words, on the Arri site, enable the Advanced tab, and select Log C Extended to Video Extended, and under Color Space select None (it's the default). I would also advise selecting a setting of 2 for the Knee. That will generate a LUT that gets you a proper, sensible result. Assuming the exposure is reasonable it should give you a very good "one light", requiring at the most only a slight exposure (offset) change.

If one is going to use these things, one needs to understand what they are and how to build and use them.......:nono:

Will try that Mike but I'm not as expert as you or Steve in these matters ... LUTs are a bit of 'black art' to me ... and sure I can make something that will half work and Resolve has a cool LUT tool but I was really asking Steve for his help from a color scientist and master LUT builder perspective ... he does that for a living and many people around the world use his services.

In pushing around the DRAGON footage yesterday I was a little perplexed at how RED is getting the wide DR of the sensor (over 16 stops of latitude) into a 10 bit bucket and how far I could push the Lin image before it fell apart .... some of my attempts were clumsy and heavy handed ... I was looking to preserve some of the delicacy of the tonal range especially in the flesh tones and faces of the young women that Ketch filmed.

We have three skilled colorist who could all do a better job than I can but I'm looking for something easy and straightforward that I can use for testing purposes in the Lab to get a consistent translation from DRAGON RAW to Lin.

Cheers.

 

[Will Keir]

Neil,

Thanks for the tests. I'd be currious to see if Resolve was using the RRX card mostly. Can you do a test of the same files with GPU only? Much appreciated.

 

[Neil W. Smith]

best of breed DRAGON LUTs

best of breed DRAGON LUTs

a bunch of people here have been saying for years a RED LUT is sorely needed... implemented in resolve or what ever app you use...

Trouble is, getting LUTs to do the DRAGON RAW footage total justice is a bit tricky ... getting them 80% right is relatively easy but dialing them in so they really translate the color matrix of the sensor and preserve it's wide RAW/Log tonal range over a Linear image requires considerable skill and finesse, especially when it comes to something like the new DRAGON sensor ... this really is a new kind of camera beast ... we're developing new 6K post workflows that not only take good care of the data pipeline but also preserve the integrity of the sensor and make best use of its incredible dynamic range.

Applying a vanilla LUT to DRAGON is not going to bring out the best in her.

Neil

 

[Neil W. Smith]

DRAGON and new Color Science 3 ...

DRAGON and new Color Science 3 ...

Well that speed is certainly handy!

I've made a few RED LUTs, although I approach this a bit differently with raw material overall. I'm holding off on generating any new ones until I have Dragon in my hands as I need to shoot the appropriate material to generate them. Also, waiting on the new color science as well.

I did run my last Dragon shoot through a REDLOGfilm LUT and pumped it into a Kodak 3D LUT and finished with a print stock emulation. I post more info on that Monday when I upload the final grade on that piece.

Yes, real-time playback and real-time rendering in Resolve 10 with RR-X is pretty awesome ... very cool to be able to hear and see 6K .r3ds playing back at FULL debayer with the RR-X ... Rohit and Peter are a couple of whiz-kids when it comes to these things .. and so quick in implementing new features.

Agree totally on importance of waiting for new Color Science 3 from Graeme ... we all saw what a tremendous improvement Color Science 2 made to EPIC footage debayering ... I'm sure Graeme will pull another magic rabbit out of his bag of tricks when it comes to getting the most out of the new DRAGON sensor.

As soon you get your DRAGON would love to see what you shoot and the kind of LUTs you make from the right material and new color science.

Keep up the good work, matey.

 

[M Most]

We have three skilled colorist who could all do a better job than I can but I'm looking for something easy and straightforward that I can use for testing purposes in the Lab to get a consistent translation from DRAGON RAW to Lin.

.

I just gave you one. And it's not "lin," it's video gamma. If you want linear light that's one thing. A video gamma image is something that's completely different than that. The Arri website gets it right and offers you either Video, LogC (also specific), or Linear (correctly meaning Linear Light). Graeme gets a bit peeved when the term "lin" is thrown around incorrectly and so do I.

 

[Christopher*Seguine]

1) put 38 DRAGON clips (just over 11and half mins) into Resolve 10 with Timeline resolution set to 6144x3160

11 mins and 28 seconds of DRAGON 6K .r3ds took 11 mins and 50 seconds to render out to ProRes 422 HQ.

Nobody would work this way. Nice thing about Resolve is that it doesn't care about the resolution.
Timeline resolution should be set to viewing resolution or delivery resolution, in your example 1920x1080, not the source clip resolution.


Try rendering out a 3996x2160 timeline of the same scaled Dragon clips to an exr sequence and let us know how long it takes with and without the Rocket-X.

 

[Neil W. Smith]

I just gave you one. And it's not "lin," it's video gamma. If you want linear light that's one thing. A video gamma image is something that's completely different than that. The Arri website gets it right and offers you either Video, LogC (also specific), or Linear (correctly meaning Linear Light). Graeme gets a bit peeved when the term "lin" is thrown around incorrectly and so do I.

Agree with the mis-use of the term "Lin" ... Poynton gets his knicker in a twist over it as well ... I'm using it as shorthand code for Rec. 709 essentially.