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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon Non-Linear Color Response?

Brian Boyer said:
Of course, RED should do everything technically possible to mitigate these occurrences but a re-education of sorts may be in order for makeup artists dealing with the changing digital landscape.
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It's part of my routine to call the makeup artist a day or two before the shoot and discuss the "RED MX Sensor makeup problem." So, a handful of makeup artists around the country know about it. They are ALWAYS glad to have the conversation and ready to collaborate. I don't make this call when I shoot other formats as I've NEVER RUN INTO THE PROBLEM with ANY OTHER CAMERA. Just saying'....
 
Tim Morten said:
Hobbit issue was due to the use of 3d - nothing to do with Red.
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Interesting you would say that, because Jackson is pretty definite in the video. Here's the specific line from the piece:

Those who would love to shoot with an Epic should also beware that the cameras naturally desaturate the action to such an extent that the makeup, costume and set design teams have to over-color everything to look natural in post production.

The behind-the-scenes video went into this in quite a bit of detail, and it was not a 3D issue. What's your information to the contrary? Again, I'm just quoting Peter Jackson's crew.
 
The information to the contrary is that we were shocked to hear that being said as nobody on their team had told us this previously. We asked them for clarification, because if there was something up with the camera, we needed to know. The clarification came back was that it was a 3D issue. If you search back through the forum you'll find a post by Jarred explaining.

Graeme
 
Marc Wielage said:
Interesting you would say that, because Jackson is pretty definite in the video. Here's the specific line from the piece:

Those who would love to shoot with an Epic should also beware that the cameras naturally desaturate the action to such an extent that the makeup, costume and set design teams have to over-color everything to look natural in post production.

The behind-the-scenes video went into this in quite a bit of detail, and it was not a 3D issue. What's your information to the contrary? Again, I'm just quoting Peter Jackson's crew.
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If I recall correctly, it was a mirror issue in the 3d rig.
 
Eric Haase said:
It's part of my routine to call the makeup artist a day or two before the shoot and discuss the "RED MX Sensor makeup problem." So, a handful of makeup artists around the country know about it. They are ALWAYS glad to have the conversation and ready to collaborate. I don't make this call when I shoot other formats as I've NEVER RUN INTO THE PROBLEM with ANY OTHER CAMERA. Just saying'....
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Like I said previously, the MX sensor does seem to be more susceptible to certain makeup issues (it's one of its tells). Or, maybe it's the only one with that specific issue. But, your capitalization suggests you're pretty adamant it's the only digital camera with ANY makeup related issues.

I find that hard to believe since I'm seeing makeup issues all over U.S. network television on non-RED shows. Again, perhaps not that specific problem or the same one but not nearly to the same extent as with MX.

Maybe it's more of an application issue, possibly in conjunction with the lighting under which the makeup is applied, which is why I mentioned a re-education of sorts for makeup artists.

We all know that every performer is wearing makeup but we're only supposed to see its results, not the makeup itself, even for women who are purposefully made up as part of the story.

I'm seeing the actual makeup - where it starts and stops, blends poorly and differs in tone from the non made up skin - quite prominently…even on the male actors. It's not necessarily the case for the entirety of any given episode and might be for just one scene.

In the last two weeks this was true for Eric McCormack on Perception, Kyle MacLachlan on Believe and Hugh Dancy on Hannibal. This was also particularly true for Diego Klattenhoff on The Blacklist earlier in the season.

I know, I watch a lot of TV. It's research, I swear.

Alls I'm sayin' is the changing digital landscape I mentioned includes sensors with ever increasing resolutions and a growing number of solid state lighting devices. The AMPAS tests showed how LED lights can adversely affect the look of makeup on film (the "gold standard"), even though it looked fine to the naked eye under that lighting.

As I understand it, this is why CRI alone is a poor indicator of how accurately an SSL device will render color to a digital sensor or film. CRI is more relevant to human vision.

If SSL can have a negative impact on makeup, surely there are other considerations to be made about the what, where, when and how of applying makeup that can use some updating since many facets of the industry are undergoing change. Than again, maybe that's a silly idea.
 
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Brian Boyer said:
Like I said previously, the MX sensor does seem to be more susceptible to certain makeup issues (it's one of its tells). Or, maybe it's the only one with that specific issue. But, your capitalization suggests you're pretty adamant it's the only digital camera with ANY makeup related issues.

I find that hard to believe since I'm seeing makeup issues all over U.S. network television on non-RED shows. Again, perhaps not that specific problem or the same one but not nearly to the same extent as with MX.

Maybe it's more of an application issue, possibly in conjunction with the lighting under which the makeup is applied, which is why I mentioned a re-education of sorts for makeup artists.

We all know that every performer is wearing makeup but we're only supposed to see its results, not the makeup itself, even for women who are purposefully made up as part of the story.

I'm seeing the actual makeup - where it starts and stops, blends poorly and differs in tone from the non made up skin - quite prominently…even on the male actors. It's not necessarily the case for the entirety of any given episode and might be for just one scene.

In the last two weeks this was true for Eric McCormack on Perception, Kyle MacLachlan on Believe and Hugh Dancy on Hannibal. This was also particularly true for Diego Klattenhoff on The Blacklist earlier in the season.

I know, I watch a lot of TV. It's research, I swear.

Alls I'm sayin' is the changing digital landscape I mentioned includes sensors with ever increasing resolutions and a growing number of solid state lighting devices. The AMPAS tests showed how LED lights can adversely affect the look of makeup on film (the "gold standard"), even though it looked fine to the naked eye under that lighting.

As I understand it, this is why CRI alone is a poor indicator of how accurately an SSL device will render color to a digital sensor or film. CRI is more relevant to human vision.

If SSL can have a negative impact on makeup, surely there are other considerations to be made about the what, where, when and how of applying makeup that can use some updating since many facets of the industry are undergoing change. Than again, maybe that's a silly idea.
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I realize that makeup issues can effect many different cameras, especially when makeup is applied poorly. I'm referring to one specific issue, which is what I believe to be seeing in the OPs example.

I've described this issue in pretty good detail- yellow/orange base makeup that looks to match skin tone to the eye renders very green on the MX sensor (and apparently Dragon) especially under tungsten light or warm light sources with only partial relief of the problem under cooler light sources or with the use of a bluish filter in front of the lens. Other cameras like the 5D or Alexa (or any broadcast camera) when photographing the same scene render the tones more accurately and do not exhibit the problem.

Undoubtedly, each camera will need their own considerations for makeup tones and it's always best to collaborate with the makeup artists. But I'm just talking about this specific problem because it is so egregious and unlike anything I've ever seen from any other camera in regard to makeup tones. Just wait until you have Heidi Klum in front of the camera and you have to tell her veteran makeup team to redo her makeup because her face looks green...because you are shooting on RED.
 
Eric Haase said:
Just wait until you have Heidi Klum in front of the camera and you have to tell her veteran makeup team to redo her makeup because her face looks green...because you are shooting on RED.
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I'm thinking that Heidi's people are not going to put her in front of a DP who is so inexperienced that he or she is not already aware of and prepared for these kinds of technical issues before her meter is running. In the rare event that this may occur, the "DP" who stands on that set and blames his camera is not going to get a second shot at any top tier modeling talent. Of that I am fairly certain.

Let's not discount the experience and skill of Ms. Klum's makeup professionals either.
 
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Evin Grant said:
There is a lot of top fashion being shot on Epics and Dragons currently. If this was such a camera specific issue I doubt that would be the case.
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Or they just properly test before hand and don't use makeup which doesn't work well with Epic/Dragon. If you told me I could use Dragon and perform a makeup test or I could use a 5D but wouldn't need to perform a makeup test to figure out what works with Dragon I would still pick Dragon. Just because the positives outweigh the negatives doesn't mean there aren't negatives.

My camera phone is more reliable than my Epic. But I'm still going to shoot Epic.
 
Ok ok, so an "expierienced" dp would have tested every brand and combination of make-up and informed the make up artist what brands are approved.

Yeah right.

Some may have done this, some dp's may dictate the brand or shade of make-up to the rock star make-up artist. Or maybe they would get told to use a camera that does not have this anomaly?

Btw. I shot a feature a few years ago on MX where this green skin thing raised its head. I did ask the make-up artist to try a different brand. It popped up again once. We power windowed it out in post, not easy and somewhat limiting.

This has been known about with RED for a very long time.

It should not still be an issue on Dragon. No ifs ands or buts.
 
Ivan McCullough said:
Ok ok, so an "expierienced" dp would have tested every brand and combination of make-up and informed the make up artist what brands are approved.
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No, but they would either have made an inquiry and tested the specific products they planned to use beforehand or if time allowed, scheduled some quick testing before the talent arrived. It is his ass, his rep on the line. :-)
 
Scott Crawley said:
No, but they would either have made an inquiry and tested the specific products they planned to use beforehand or if time allowed, scheduled some quick testing before the talent arrived. It is his ass, his rep on the line. :-)
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Or it's the cameras. ;-) (rep on the line)

RED should not be giving ammo to those who say its a shaky platform.

If a light was doing this do you think they would change it?
 
Niko Pueringer said:
This is really wishful thinking.
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You are entitled to believe that if you like, but now that you have heard such a thing is a possibility you would be an idiot not to do these things. The choice is yours. Professional fashion 'togs and Cinematographers do makeup tests. This isn't new.
 
Ivan McCullough said:
Or it's the cameras. ;-) (rep on the line)

RED should not be giving ammo to those who say its a shaky platform.

If a light was doing this do you think they would change it?
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I don't think this is a consideration unique to Red, but either way it is the DP's ass on the line, not the camera. He is required to master his medium. The fuck-up is his. When you waste couple hours or worse, run out of time and lose the talent and the day your Producer will hold you accountable not Red. Your Producer knows that a good DP could have executed and would have executed properly with Epic... So what would be your excuse? No. It isn't the camera.

I believe that the lights contribute to the issue, so would I change it? Yes of course. Who were you asking about? I don't understand the question.
 
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Scott Crawley said:
I believe that the lights contribute to the issue, so would I change it? Yes of course. Who were you asking about? I don't understand the question.
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Who? The they in your response which I was quoting.

The implication in what I was saying I thought was clear.

If this issue was caused by one piece of equipment eg a light do you think they would change it out for a light that would not cause the problem?

Now substitute camera for light...

Seriously, if this problem comes up on a set the one thing on everyone's mind is "what is the one thing we can change to stop this happening now and in the future?".

Anyway, if every other camera under the same conditions does not turn skin green then a RED camera should be the same.

For no other reason than to stop their brand looking foolish.
 
Ivan McCullough said:
If this issue was caused by one piece of equipment eg a light do you think they would change it out for a light that would not cause the problem?

Now substitute camera for light...

Seriously, if this problem comes up on a set the one thing on everyone's mind is "what is the one thing we can change to stop this happening now and in the future?".
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I understand now.

Again, I don't think this is unique to Red or that a particular camera can even be singled out as the culprit. Presently I believe it is a combination of; lights, camera, makeup with skin tone possibly contributing. I have not encountered this at all, but since it is usually quicker and easier to switch out a concealer than the camera or all of the lights I would concentrate there.
 
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