Dragon + Leica M lenses - Whats your favorite leica m lens with Dragon??

[orlando schirch]

I an about to pull the trigger on a Leica M-Mount for my arriving Dragon and recently received an info from Tech Support saying that I will not be able to use my Summilux 35mm 1.4 ( aespherical/newer version) with Dragon or Epic. Any of you guys out there using the leica m-Mount have any tips on your favorite leica m-lens?? I know the Noctilux will work fine on epic or dragon and looks like is a magical combo...

Please let me know what's your favorite combo and lets see nome R3D grabs if possible!!

Thanks in advance

 

[Phil Holland]

The cake is a lie.

I have informed Red that the manual is incorrect on this matter as Dragon has a wildly different sensor box, lens port, and bushing designed compared to Mysterium-X.

Epic Dragon + Leica DSMC Mount + Leica Summilux-M 21mm f/1.4 (frame right):

I literally took delivery of the Leica Mount yesterday after doing those initial tests a few months back because I was really pleased with the results and images. I'll be testing pretty much ever M lens at some point.

What I can say is at the moment the Leica Summilux-M 21mm f/1.4 didn't play nice due to the unique and extreme light angles it pushed out. It's a lens not exactly design for this system.

Also, to make note. Certain older 35mm Summilux-M primes may have slightly different design variations in the rear. So those versions need to be tested.

However! In the Summilux-M world the 24, 35, 50, and 75mm looked great. Like spooky good.


Today I'm getting in some Voigtlander glass. I'll be testing all the things.

 

[orlando schirch]

Hi Phil,

Thank you so much on your quick reply! Can't wait to get your opinion on the best overall M-lens with Dragon, that will be amazing!

So, considering that you have fitted and tested the summilux-M 21mm 1.4... do you think i will be safe getting the mount to use it with the Summilux-M 35mm 1.4 ASPH? ( I guess the ASHP has a deeper mount than the older version....thats the reason of my doubt! Between the 35mm 1.4 and the 50mm ( considering the 50 1.4 and not the noctilux) which one would you say performs better??

 

[Phil Holland]

Hi Phil,

Thank you so much on your quick reply! Can't wait to get your opinion on the best overall M-lens with Dragon, that will be amazing!

So, considering that you have fitted and tested the summilux-M 21mm 1.4... do you think i will be safe getting the mount to use it with the Summilux-M 35mm 1.4 ASPH? ( I guess the ASHP has a deeper mount than the older version....thats the reason of my doubt! Between the 35mm 1.4 and the 50mm ( considering the 50 1.4 and not the noctilux) which one would you say performs better??

As far as I've tested last time the 35mm was "safe to use" and produced quality images. I will literally be testing the entire M catalog starting next week and I'll have lots to say. I'm more or less focused on the Summilux, Summicron, and Noctilux primes. I've used the Noct 50 and it looks great. Though certainly pricey compared to say the Voigtlander 50mm f/1.1 and SLR Magic 50mm T0.95. I'm likely getting the SLR Magic lens next month.

There's a lot of nuance and subtle quality here with M glass. What I can say is that Leica really has the best overall out of focus image compared to other M lenses. I did some tests on stills cameras some time ago and it's insane what the difference is between similar lenses across different brands. Leica has a 3D pop on their M glass that's tough to beat.

Voigtlander though does indeed have a slightly faster and pretty impressive 35mm f/1.2, which is currently the fasted FF35 35mm prime around. I'll know if this works with Dragon later today. If curious the SLR Magic 35mm T0.95 will not work on Dragon because it has a fat butt. It doesn't even work on M bodies. It will work however on NEX cameras via an M to E-mount adapter.


If you're curious avid and notable Red shooter Greg Williams took delivery of his DSMC Leica-M Mount recently to put in use on his Dragon:

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That's the 28mm Summicron above.

Greg and I are sort of on the same war path here with our desires for these tiny gems. His words:

"Sorry to geek out but this is the most excited I've been about a camera in many many years. 6K Red Carbon Dragon + Leica-M Mount = incredible. All fits in a small boulder bag. Documentary film making just changed for me forever. Thank you Jarred and Jim."


I've been itching to put together a small, fast, lightweight kit with M glass for a while. Powered by single REDVOLTs via the DSMC Side Handle or even using the REDVOLT XLs and the REDVOLT XL MODULE (which I don't have yet) makes this combo crazy small and super portable.

If you saw my "belly cam" rig that I used in South Korea you can see why I'm attracted to this concept:

That was with the Voigtlander 40mm f/2 Ultron SL II in EF mount. I sort of want to do this without the large V-Mount battery.

 

[orlando schirch]

Incredible Phil!! I am really, really excited about this....so exited that I might drop the purchase of a canon Motion mount in order to invest on the leica mount + 1 more m lens .....as its always been a dream of mine to have an M-kit! Today Im stuck with mostly Canon L glass....but that may also change

 

[orlando schirch]

Dragon + Summilux-M 35mm 1.4 + DJI Ronin = BOOM!!! light and beautiful!

 

[paul schefz]

phil: really excited to hear what you will say about the M lenses on dragon....i have been thinking about M glass for a while....it is not only the "3D" look which s really a combination of object sharpness and super smooth OOF areas.....i simply can't remember ever having any CA....at all....and the size and weight is just a dream for my way of shooting....
have had several voigtlanders as well and my experience wasn't all that great.....sharp and good contrast but somehow harsh looking compared to even the cheapest m lenses....i guess that is what i remember the best about M glass....very, very organic, analog looking...beautiful highlights

can't wait to see you report!

 

[Phil Holland]

I'm going to likely have a mishmash of Leica, Voigtlander, and that one 50mm SLR Magic Lens.

One thing I know from my previous M lens tests is the Voigtlander 35mm f/1.2 version II got rid of the ugly possibility of "onion skin" bokeh, which I loathe. Version two is supposed to be solid.

Another and maybe likely possibility is to just stick with Leica and the Summilux-M 24, 35, 50, and 75. That's a pretty damn handy kit and I like how all of that glass renders already.

The SLR Magic 50mm T0.95 calls to me for a different reason. It's currently the fastest in production lens in the world. That's a full stop faster than f/1.4 in reality. Shallow depth of field fan or not, I can see some fascinating potential shooting in very, very low light conditions with that lens.

I do have a Leica 65mm f/0.75 I've adapted for still and motion work, but it is one big pig of a lens and not exactly user friendly. Good for specialty imaging though. I've used it on a couple title sequences over the years.

 

[Les Hillis]

...I simply can't remember ever having any CA....at all...

I've seen it on specular highlights and other extremely high contrast elements within a shot, when using Leica-M lenses on the Scarlet. There are Apochromatic versions of some Leica-M lenses that greatly minimize the CA, but even then it's still there, going by test shots I've seen that others have done. Just wanted to mention that, as a bit of a reality check.

 

[Will Keir]

Phil,

If you are around tomorrow I have a good shoulder rig to share with you and we might have some cool advice for share regarding lenses, gear and projects. Would be good to see you while I'm in town.

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil,

If you are around tomorrow I have a good shoulder rig to share with you and we might have some cool advice for share regarding lenses, gear and projects. Would be good to see you while I'm in town.

Ah. I'm on set Thursday and Friday "sniping things". Maybe Friday afternoon. Should be wrapped early. Then I'm out of town for the holiday weekend :/

I'd love to see any new gear though. How long are you in LA?

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Ah, lens discussions. My favourite! So thanks to Orlando for asking and to Phil for contributing.

I have doubts that the RED sensor can provide a good platform for the wider M lenses, Leica or otherwise. I am not saying that I know the results beforehand, but there are results worth comparing. Here is a list of lenses tested on both the Sony A7r and the Leica M240 under the same field conditions:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/leica-m-vs-sony-a7r-by-stilgar/

Here is the Voigtlander 35/1.2 at f/1.2, f/2, f/8.0 and f/16. Notice how poorly this lens performs on the Sony even at f/8.0 (and if you think this lens is crap on digital cameras, wait until you compare it with the Leica 35/2):

http://stilgar-photo.blogspot.ch/2013/12/sony-a7r-vs-leica-m-part-03-voigtlander.html

OTOH the RED sensor is a bit smaller than 24x36mm. Perhaps the extremely poor edge performance of these lenses is beyond the borders of the RED sensor's dimensions. If you're shooting at lower resolutions such as 5K on the Dragon, the performance should be better still.

I have not yet seen direct comparisons with SLR or PL lenses of equivalent focal lengths. And I have not seen the same lenses tested on film in the same circumstances.

 

[Phil Holland]

I have doubts that the RED sensor can provide a good platform for the wider M lenses, Leica or otherwise.

Yes. And this has been my experience with various bodies that can accept M lenses.

The main reason that the M240 performs well with certain lenses is the extremely thin layer between the color filters and the photodiodes with a combination of impressively designed microlenses.

Basically the wide lenses that produce a large angle of incidence on some sensors end up having light rays that stray outside of the target pixel well and you get that distortion.

 

[Les Hillis]

As much as I love the Leica-M/RED MX sensor combination, I think when it comes to stills glass for the Dragon sensor, the ultimate match would be the Leica-S series lenses.

It seemed to me a bit absurd to even dream of a RED Leica-S mount before the Dragon appeared, but now that it's been seen and proven what the Dragon sensor can do, it doesn't seem like such a crazy idea.

I understand the Leica-S lenses are all automatic aperture only, so there'd be no chance of a simpler and cheaper dumb mount or adapter. But apart from a lack of customer demand for such a thing, does anybody know if there's some other reason, technical or legal (some Leica patents or proprietary tech of some sort for example), that would prevent RED from making a Leica-S mount?

 

[Will Keir]

That was it probably, I'll post some kinda review of this should rig I've been rigging, think you'll like it. Would be nice to test it on different lenses.

Ah. I'm on set Thursday and Friday "sniping things". Maybe Friday afternoon. Should be wrapped early. Then I'm out of town for the holiday weekend :/

I'd love to see any new gear though. How long are you in LA?

 

[Phil Holland]

Posted this little combo up on instagram today just before shooting:



That's the Voigtlander 35mm f/1.2 on Epic Dragon. Word of caution for Leica-M Mount users. This lens fits, but you need to be gentle on the lens insert. There is a plastic OLPF port bushing/frame that helps wrangle flare. It can easily get bumped, moved, pushed in, etc....

Also had the 21mm f/1.8 Voigtlander up today, but need to test it out further. Don't think the lens hood is removable.

Panavision and Schneider PL glass was also present and accounted for. Love me some Primos. Can't get enough.

 

[Michael J Brennan]

It seemed to me a bit absurd to even dream of a RED Leica-S mount before the Dragon appeared, but now that it's been seen and proven what the Dragon sensor can do, it doesn't seem like such a crazy idea.

Love the idea, the lenses are stella and according to the web, "they were designed to out-resolve even a next generation 5 micron sensor" so are spot on for Dragon and would future proof against any further changes in sensor size (but not a reduction in pixel size)

I'd think twice about buying any high performance glass that isn't 6k.

Having said that I predict that improvements in design and fabrication will allow more pixels to be packed into less space, with lower noise, thus allowing a return to super 16 flexibility where 10x or 20x lenses can be hand held.



Michael J Brennan

 

[keith morton]

However! In the Summilux-M world the 24, 35, 50, and 75mm looked great. Like spooky good.

You can add the new 28mm Summilux to this great list

 

[Christopher Probst]

You can add the new 28mm Summilux to this great list

Oh shit... That just greatly changed the game for me...

 

[orlando schirch]

Phil, Not taking under consideration the physical aspect of the lens and its specific handling characteristics for cinema ( what is obvious the advantage of any specific cine lens with its size, markings, focus ring and pull, robustness, etc..) and ONLY taking under account IMAGE QUALITY!!.....

How does a 35mm summilux 1.4 ASHP or a summilux 50mm 1.4 stack against a Schneider Xenon at the same focal range and considering the same aperture stop?? Do you think the Leica M's (image only) can be compared to cine lenses like schneider xenons, zeiss CP.2's or even Arris for that matter??