DRAGON - ITS THE REAL DEAL !!!!

[Mike Garrick]

Mark, you called it right for the 1st footage from a Dragon, real world, no gimmicks, K.I.S.S principle .

I said way back in an earlier post, try shooting a white car in strong Aussie sunlight with a black dash & no lighting...that's real world. Couldn't be more impressed !

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Sorry Mark, that you have to be reading some of the nonsense here, and that is why I will never Test any gear for the sake of giving Test results ot any one, but only shoot finished small projects to be viewed when completely finished according to my taste, if they like it good if they don't just the same...

They are always those that understand and those that don't, those that like it and those that don't, the world is a diverse place, and we got to love it for what it is, I never try to bend it, can't be done, even so some people can be made believers by results, some just like to be negative suckers and will never see the end of it on matter what always finding something to argue about it...


So, I do what I do, because I love it, and shoot with what I like and recommend it and speak highly of it for the reasons which make me like it, the rest is up to each individual, to either wait to shoot with it themselves to make an opinion, or just rain on any one else's parade before they even know exactly what are they talking abut...


It is the nature of things with some people, and I fill for you, which have dedicated hard time to do this, and or Jim and Jarred which have to deal with this as well, but it is also the nature of a pubic forum were every one gives their open opinion, and at times such must be taken as they are, a simple opinion, with no grounds at all, and just concentrate the energy and time in those that do have it, and let the discussions be about something important that enriches as all.

 

[Mark Toia]

Sorry Mark, that you have to be reading some of the nonsense here, and that is why I will never Test any gear for the sake of giving Test results ot any one, but only shoot finished small projects to be viewed when completely finished according to my taste, if they like it good if they don't just the same...

They are always those that understand and those that don't, those that like it and those that don't, the world is a diverse place, and we got to love it for what it is, I never try to bend it, can't be done, even so some people can be made believers by results, some just like to be negative suckers and will never see the end of it on matter what always finding something to argue about it...


So, I do what I do, because I love it, and shoot with what I like and recommend it and speak highly of it for the reasons which make me like it, the rest is up to each individual, to either wait to shoot with it themselves to make an opinion, or just rain on any one else's parade before they even know exactly what are they talking abut...


It is the nature of things with some people, and I fill for you, which have dedicated hard time to do this, and or Jim and Jarred which have to deal with this as well, but it is also the nature of a pubic forum were every one gives their open opinion, and at times such must be taken as they are, a simple opinion, with no grounds at all, and just concentrate the energy and time in those that do have it, and let the discussions be about something important that enriches as all.

Don't feel sorry for me Ketch, I'm as tough as nails. None of this worries me at all. I'm just making sure the facts are facts and they don't get turned into bullshit.
I totally understand that there is a bunch of guys out there with huge investments in other brands and will constantly justify to them selves that they have the better equipment, why becuase they spent a fortune and want a return on it... simple.
They will do anything to discredit RED to make sure there investment stays safe. Thats just human nature... I get it... hey and to be honest in my early days, I fell foul to the same foolish behaviour.

 

[Ivan Kovax]

I could have performed many different tricks on the images to get my desired look.... but I wasn't asked to bullshit and hide things, And I didn't want to.... isn't that what tests are all about. ? Push, bend, break, twist and see what goes wrong... I did this and the worst images I got I presented. Which look pretty bloody good for a break test !... If I was shooting for perfection then what would you have learnt out of all this... Nothing.

But hey... Do i really care about some of these debates, No... I'm finding a number of them quite comedic to be honest.

Because I know that a lot of the scenes we were shooting looked way way worse in real life compared to what I presented to you, specially the car hight light shots, I seriously couldn't see anything through the bright glare coming from that car with my very own eyes, I was squinting the whole time !, it was like looking into a mirror dead into the sun ! to see an actual usable image come from it, is astounding to say the least. To have a small bit of clipping on what was a complete wash out of light is amazing to me. Film, Alexa, Sony , they all clip at this end of the spectrum, so don't fool yourselves. What Dragon delivered from that actual test was seriously way above expectations from any camera.

That little pink tinge in the highlight that some people are talking about, was gone with just a touch of a button in RCX, which I forgot to tick... sorry. Done , fixed and gone in less than a second. And I know we wont see it again anyway, as it's already been worked on to be never seen again.
And I know for a fact, that the camera I was using is not what the end user will get. It's still a test camera, There are things going on in the background guaranteeing even better results. (that I can't talk about, so don't ask)

Lets just all applaud the fact that RED have made an amazing sensor, that will know doubt get even better over time with our free upgrades... Free !

This post isn't directed at you Ivan, because you touched up those images, It just started me off on this tangent.

Sorry mate,

I should have made it clear that it was NEVER directed at you or your work either. I wasn't trying to call you out or anything.

I get a little bemused when so many people are being so critical... you were very clear on the purpose and intent of your work from the get go, and you even made it clear that intentionally chose not to make it shiny etc etc... yet so many people chose to look for any flaw they could find despite this. I was really only making it clear what you just made clear... that these supposed problems are not really problems.

If people want to criticise they really need to not jump to hasty conclusions and actually think reasonably before they say anything...

Ivan

 

[Nils Ruinet]

3 stops more dynamic range is HUGE ! That's more than what film can handle ! 2 stops more in the shadows is also a considerable improvement ! 16 bits, 6K...

The MX is already a fantastic sensor, I rarely felt limited by its DR... I was pretty excited at first by HDRx, but in the end I must have used it like 5 times in 2 years, in very specific situations... Why people would want 20 stops of DR puzzles me. The so-called "highlight issues" that some pointed out earlier are so easily fixed with a simple curve, that's definitely not an issue for anyone who knows what he's doing...

Seriously, in a few years when we get the next generation sensor that has 20 Stops of DR at 8K, people will still complain that it's not 25 stops...

The Low con filter discussion is interesting though, I'll have a look at those.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Don't feel sorry for me Ketch, I'm as tough as nails. None of this worries me at all. I'm just making sure the facts are facts and they don't get turned into bullshit.
I totally understand that there is a bunch of guys out there with huge investments in other brands and will constantly justify to them selves that they have the better equipment, why becuase they spent a fortune and want a return on it... simple.
They will do anything to discredit RED to make sure there investment stays safe. Thats just human nature... I get it... hey and to be honest in my early days, I fell foul to the same foolish behaviour.

Good to hear buddy... And yes you do look tough too...



I promise my self that one of this days (more months) I'll make it out to New Zealand, and during that visit I'll be sure to hit you up and see if you are around to come visit your beautiful home town as well.

 

[Vithya Sharma]

Wow Thnkx Mark

 

[Jean Maurizio]

The very surprising fact is one:

Dragon has more resolution than anything out there.

Dragon has more DR than anything out there.

Smallest form factor and finally great skintones.

What's wrong with you people?

Some said "Red promised 20 DR!".

Wake up guys, in this planet does not exist anything that have 16/16.5 DR like Dragon has is for sure, so what are you complaining for?

Get a 5D and play with it, or sell your house and buy an under specced Alexa, because some rants are becoming very annoying here.

Get real.


EDIT: I just saw Jannard wrote something similar in another thread, so ignore this post, or consider me a fanboy. :nopity:

 

[Scott Crawley]

You didn't respond to my question directly, but I think I see the answers here among your other points. Some of them seem to contradict but I think I have parsed the info I was looking for. Bear with me please.

Adding the filter is just easier for you, and that's it. You are capable of doing it with a lut, a curve but you choose to bake it in to be sure it sticks, and clients who are looking for Alexa-like images from your kit are happy to have it baked in. You do this in spite of the fact that doing it in post processing is more flexible and less succeptable to interaction with the lens for the reasons previously stated.

Do I understand correctly?

Thanks.

Peter, to me the the Alexa is just boring, unfortunately that's actually it's appeal to many I work with. I find even the MX Epic footage much more interesting and exciting, as well as higher quality but it does require the user to understand the technology and make informed decisions, something the Alexa demands very little of for better or worse.

I love my Epic's images and Dragon's seem to take that an order of magnitude farther but the name of the game these days is productivity! So the easier it is to get a image right out of the camera that works the easier time I have convincing producers to use my Epic.

Usually a classic soft or a Classic black soft 1/8 or holywood black magic 1/4. As to upressing the Alexa I've only ever shot prores, so I couldn't say, but projected at 4K I'd bet the difference is pretty dramatic. Another note on filters is that I almost always tune my filter pack to the presentation and use. Although I prefer the look of the Classic softs, BCS and HBM filters a straight 1/8 low con (not ultracon) is probably the best match to a clean Alexa. There are instances though where the overall color of a scene can "wash" over the entire Alexa image, it's subtle but one of the side effects of being mated to that filter all the time. The reason that it's hard to match the halation look all the time is that different lenses and even different apertures will affect the performance of these filters as the effects become more or less magnified and resolved. To achieve a truly uniform look you'd need to copy Arri and put the filter behind the lens close to the imaging plane. I personally prefer to keep my options open.

 

[Medavoym]

I could have performed many different tricks on the images to get my desired look.... but I wasn't asked to bullshit and hide things, And I didn't want to.... isn't that what tests are all about. ? Push, bend, break, twist and see what goes wrong... I did this and the worst images I got I presented. Which look pretty bloody good for a break test !... If I was shooting for perfection then what would you have learnt out of all this... Nothing.

But hey... Do i really care about some of these debates, No... I'm finding a number of them quite comedic to be honest.

Because I know that a lot of the scenes we were shooting looked way way worse in real life compared to what I presented to you, specially the car hight light shots, I seriously couldn't see anything through the bright glare coming from that car with my very own eyes, I was squinting the whole time !, it was like looking into a mirror dead into the sun ! to see an actual usable image come from it, is astounding to say the least. To have a small bit of clipping on what was a complete wash out of light is amazing to me. Film, Alexa, Sony , they all clip at this end of the spectrum, so don't fool yourselves. What Dragon delivered from that actual test was seriously way above expectations from any camera.

That little pink tinge in the highlight that some people are talking about, was gone with just a touch of a button in RCX, which I forgot to tick... sorry. Done , fixed and gone in less than a second. And I know we wont see it again anyway, as it's already been worked on to be never seen again.
And I know for a fact, that the camera I was using is not what the end user will get. It's still a test camera, There are things going on in the background guaranteeing even better results. (that I can't talk about, so don't ask)

Lets just all applaud the fact that RED have made an amazing sensor, that will know doubt get even better over time with our free upgrades... Free !

This post isn't directed at you Ivan, because you touched up those images, It just started me off on this tangent.

Mark,

I understand your frustration. Don't worry about the negative comments, you did more than you had to! Everyone is grateful.

To put everyone at rest - why don't you choose 2-3 shots that exhibit hard clipping and re-process them, and then post them again?
Some people don't understand the nature of your test.
Now it's a good time to go back to those few shots, grade them properly to show anyone that - when processed correctly - hard clipping is not a problem with Dragon.

 

[António Fagundes]

Anyone who judges DR, highlight rolloff or any image related qualities on a Vimeo clip should go back to film school. Year 1.
Kind Regards

So how can you ay this test is any good? Your statement has to work both ways buddy!

 

[dewaldaukema]

I am saying trust the man who shot the tests. he dealt with the masters. He also happens to be a very, very talented and experienced director/cinematographer who can shoot with any gear he likes.
I am not saying the tests are good or bad as I have not seen any of the master material.
I am saying trust the highly qualified man who shot the tests and could judge the master material before he said anything...
And if this confuses you, sorry but I don't have the time to explain this in simpler terms.
Kind Regards.

 

[Scott Crawley]

So how can you ay this test is any good? Your statement has to work both ways buddy!

The Vimeo is only a representation of what he got. It doesn't tell the whole story, just part of it. If you really want to get a feel for Dragon's highlight roll off, you need to get your hands on the camera and/or some original footage, so we rely on Mark's notes for his impressions until we can have that pleasure for ourselves. I believe that is the point some are trying to make.

oops, it appears Dewald beat me to it.

OTOH Dewald, Mark did provide us with meter readings on both ends of the exposure. That should give us some appreciation for the Dragon's DR.

 

[Antoine Fabi]

I feel some pressure to work with the most wonderful camera in the world

Bring it!!!!!!

Antoine

 

[Mark Wilkinson]

Regarding the built-in Alexa LowCon filter - I've seen it referred to as a halation filter (black frost-like) rather than a low contrast filter. Does anybody know definitively which it is? combo? secret?

Jim called it a LowCon in the other thread...

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Evin's note that some things are far more easily done in the optical path vs signal processing is well taken. Whatever choices ARRI made to get the filmic character they were aiming for with Alexa seem to have proved popular. FWIW, it makes wonderful images and uprezzing to 4k from ArriRAW looks better than you might expect. Like Evin, I would much rather have Epic MX files to massage into the precise look I am aiming for, but considering some of the cameras I've been hired to shoot with I'd hardly kick the Alexa out of bed for a bit of halation ;-)

In terms of filtering I was glad to see Evin go into more depth about options. IMO a key part of the cinematographers skill set is choosing the right filtration for the situation. There isn't one filter that is right for everything. In my work I consider the "matrix" of filtering, lens choice and post processing techniques at my disposal then make a decision about how to best achieve the goal. As a general rule I follow the sage wisdom of David Mullen in being conservative with filter strengths on camera knowing I can accentuate the effect in post if desired, but can't properly undo it if I went too far.

IAC, if the RED philosophy of giving the photographer as much image data as possible to take into the virtual darkroom appeals to you then the Dragon sensor should make you very happy, if you prefer the Polaroid approach then ARRI has you covered ;-)

Cheers - #19

 

[Scott Crawley]

I can understand that. ;-) Well said, as usual.

Evin's note that some things are far more easily done in the optical path vs signal processing is well taken. Whatever choices ARRI made to get the filmic character they were aiming for with Alexa seem to have proved popular. FWIW, it makes wonderful images and uprezzing to 4k from ArriRAW looks better than you might expect. Like Evin, I would much rather have Epic MX files to massage into the precise look I am aiming for, but considering some of the cameras I've been hired to shoot with I'd hardly kick the Alexa out of bed for a bit of halation ;-)

In terms of filtering I was glad to see Evin go into more depth about options. IMO a key part of the cinematographers skill set is choosing the right filtration for the situation. There isn't one filter that is right for everything. In my work I consider the "matrix" of filtering, lens choice and post processing techniques at my disposal then make a decision about how to best achieve the goal. As a general rule I follow the sage wisdom of David Mullen in being conservative with filter strengths on camera knowing I can accentuate the effect in post if desired, but can't properly undo it if I went too far.

IAC, if the RED philosophy of giving the photographer as much image data as possible to take into the virtual darkroom appeals to you then the Dragon sensor should make you very happy, if you prefer the Polaroid approach then ARRI has you covered ;-)

Cheers - #19

 

[Luis Otero]

....Epic ha allowed me to shoot personal films and also Spiderman and Transformers 4. How cool is that....

Peter

Spiderman is one of the examples that can be pointed out to be among the greatest footage acquired with Epic. An honor to say it to the person who did it, sir.

Respectfully,

 

[Alexandre de Mortemart]

Brice I think you are very right. This is the first time a high tech product is launched in such a transparent way.
RED has understood the challenges of the new world we live in. TRANSPARENCY will always prevail.
This is the subject of the new picture we are preparing...and going to shoot with this new camera!
Merci RED

 

[Mike P.]

Mike, those are some serious fighten words.

I may have been a little hasty/off the cuff. I updated the post with a caveat or two. Also, I'm kind of using "sharpness" and "detail" interchangeably... Maybe I should say that RED footage is sharper, but the detail is very similar even though Alexa has half the pixels.

mike you must be blind or... i can shoot Scarlet vs Alexa resolution test tomorrow and post it here..what happens if Scarlet 4K way sharper than Alexa what you gonna say then..

I would love this Kemalettin, especially if you can post the raws of both (or, at the very least, 1:1 comparison jpegs). Don't get me wrong, you can extract the sharpness out of a r3d file, but I find it does more harm than good (looks more like over-sharpened video and less like film), whereas I don't see that with a few other digital cinema cameras (Alexa being the top dog, probably because it isn't technically as sharp, but still resolves detail so well). Hopefully dragon will turn the tables on all this (lord knows it's got a DR advantage).

Admittedly any Alexa footage I've had was shot with (arguably) better lenses than I most often use with my personal Scarlet. That said, I see the (more objective) results of these kinds of tests and they kind of point to the same conclusion. In that particular test they're are comparing Epic 5k downscaled to UHD (better than the 4k I've compared) and Alexa 2.88k upscaled to UHD and I seriously would have no problems mix and matching the two from a sharpness standpoint (granted I haven't seen them on 4k projector as Neil suggests in that thread)... The fact that the Alexa has half the resolution and still holds up fairly well when blown up is a little frightening (as Bob put it). And the only problem I have with all of this is it usually isn't worth the additional render time (and tweaks) required to apply sharpening to RED footage to make its resolution stand out (ironically, as mentioned, applying sharpening actually makes images look a little more videoy as well, so personally it's a lose-lose in my experience).

Try the Hollywood Black Magic 1/8th or 1/4. You will love the look.

I sold Timur my second HBM 1/8th and he loves it. Retains detail but gives a soft halation look to highlights that isn't over the top IMPO.

I haven't tried HBM, only vanilla low-con 1/4 and pro-mist 1/4 (both separately). In the right scenarios they looked good, but again, not consistently great. So, HBM is next on my list I guess. Actually, I think quite a few people have suggested it... Speak of the devil (Nick does too).

I'm curious what Evin is using too. We've been matching Alexa by using 1/4 Classic Soft on our Scarlets. You can see how this looks in the video below (look at the interviews only). Army Wives is shot on Alexa, and if anything the Scarlet footage looks sharper IMHO.

Yup, HBM is Classic Soft + 1/8 Black Promist. If you don't want the black specs of Promist (and the extra halation), then Classic Soft by itself works too.

Yeah, in that Army Wives example the Scarlet footage looks way cleaner, which honestly may work against it from a perceived sharpness/detail point of view. Was that ArriRAW or prores? Even with vimeo compression the Scarlet footage looks to be sharper, but not necessarily more detailed (again, maybe the cleanliness has something to do with it.)