DRAGON - ITS THE REAL DEAL !!!!

[egon touste]

But what if you're shooting a commercial for a black and gray velvet quilt and the client needs to see all the detail in the fine Dutch weave?

This exact thing happened to me last week on a shoot.

Ok, no it didn't.

HDRX ..unless the duvet is moving too fast (ps, love the hypothetical, good work! ..even if its virtual/emulated..)

 

[egon touste]

The MX had already plenty of DR to work with, Red decided to pump up some more, fine. But there are more important things that we need to see from this sensor.

.. that's an interesting point .. er, when you've made it ..what is more important?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

sorry, i may have lead you astray, I meant thats what we were pushing too.. 7 stops ND. Thats when it got to the point were I didn't accept the pictures I was getting.
We were noticing IR starting to come in around 5 stops... not as bad as MX.. but it was still there, Anyways, i don't think the shipped cameras will have the issue. IR will be sorted by then I sure.

That's still pretty good and a huge improvement. Of course, we don't know the full details of your shooting situations for that. In our high-altitude environments here, we struggle with IR and UV all the time. IR can set in with as little as 3 stops of ND on MX and we get about an extra stop of play on the Alexa and most DSLRs before noticeable IR pollution creeps in. Some still cameras perform worse than the MX for IR, their internal processing usually does an OK job of filtering it out, but when you shoot RAW on these cameras the IR can be there with a vengeance.

Choice of glass and all around shooting conditions still play a huge role. IR doesn't translate the same through all lenses. Some of the older lenses, especially lenses with a high lead content within their glass formulation or large zooms can do some to block IR. RED has improved their IR formulation with each sensor release. With the original M sensor, we could go out in the desert after dark on a new moon, the only thing our eyes can see is infinite black and stars above. In the RED One (original M sensor) the ground, especially large rock surfaces, would glow.

Another fun one with the original M sensor (have not tried with MX) is to do it at night with a helicopter landing on sand or fine dirt surfaces. Have some respectable ND in front of the lens and watch the ESD of the particulates intermix with the rotors and put out a massive IR glow. Does this in night-vision scopes and security cameras, but interesting to see it on a cinema camera.

 

[Mark Wilkinson]

If you want detail in the clouds, then that's where you start. And that is why you would ND the window or light the subject to pull your 2.8 key to whatever contrast ratio falls within your 16 stop range of the Dragon, the highest being the clouds, then work your way back... you would probably want to read your subject at f5.6 or f8 (if the clouds are at f45) , so that your lower dark parts of the frame wouldn't fall too much under that 16 stop ratio. IF you want to see EVERYTHING in the frame in such high contrast scene (which I think is a bit boring cinematography, but that's just me...)

Nothing complicated when you have 16 stops to work with.

The MX had already plenty of DR to work with, Red decided to pump up some more, fine. But there are more important things that we need to see from this sensor.

But what you didn't know is that the key grip drank too much the night before and forgot the keys to the grip truck, so ND on the windows impossible. We were shooting 300 miles from town. In a desert or jungle or something.

And Egon was correct, the duvet was flowing in the wind as in a Tarsem wet dream.

Additionally, the talent suffered from Meningitis years ago and is incredibly light sensitive, so raising the key to f5.6 would be excruciating.

I was kidding. Everyone's a critic.

 

[António Fagundes]

But what you didn't know is that the key grip drank too much the night before and forgot the keys to the grip truck, so ND on the windows impossible. We were shooting 300 miles from town. In a desert or jungle or something.

And Egon was correct, the duvet was flowing in the wind as in a Tarsem wet dream.

Additionally, the talent suffered from Meningitis years ago and is incredibly light sensitive, so raising the key to f5.6 would be excruciating.

I was kidding. Everyone's a critic.

Or you could just wait for the sun to be behind you and shorten the contrast ratio, but this you would know in advance and therefore shcedule that important product shot accordingly... But if you have drunk crew members and sick talent, maybe you or you production people are not up to task to get a project going... Kidding

I guess what I was saying was that it's not the camera's job to select or know what it is that you want to see in any given scene, that's your job... and what I also said was that chosing the option to see everything is no option at all, it just says that you don't know what it is that is important in the scene. Cinematography is about light and shadow, it's as much about what you see as what you don't see.

But this is a forum so everyone does have an opinion, and this is mine...

.. that's an interesting point .. er, when you've made it ..what is more important?

Do I really have to bring that up again?

 

[egon touste]

Do I really have to bring that up again?

i just checked your recent posts.. er, maybe better not to i guess

 

[Mark Wilkinson]

Cinematography is about light and shadow, it's as much about what you see as what you don't see.

Damn the chiaroscuro - full steam ahead!

 

[Rudi Herbert]

If I were Jim, I'd be very thankful for people like Antonio, whose educated and constructive criticism are the only way to help ascertain problems with the new sensor and make things better. All new (and established) products have weak areas and room for improvement. All of them.

On the same token, the almost blind loyalty of those who've been extolling the virtues of RED since the original M model back in 2007 and their constant shushing of those who bring up legitimate concerns are of of no help whatsoever to the people trying to truly develop a product to be the absolute best it can be. So for crying out loud, those who feel the need to constantly defend RED, relax, Jim, Jarred and co. have proven they can do a stellar job defending their lunch from the bullies who wanna take it away. Instead, sit back and actually read some of those posts that actually bring up very valid points. Who knows, you might yet learn something, which I assume, is the reason we all spend so much of our precious time on these forums. Whoever feels the need to address my post, well then, you are exactly the type of person these words were meant for.

If only we all went about our work with the same level of energy, we'd all be masters of our craft by now...

 

[Bill Anderson]

"16 stops" is a lot, for sure, but things can take on a whole new meaning when one is able to move an extreme range of tonal values up and down the scale at will and with impunity. It's not always just about CONTAINING extreme values, it's also about PLACING values where you want them. Take Mark's shot of the guy against the sky, and now consider that you might want his skin tones to be luminous with good texture and modulation, so you expose and slide that value on up to accomplish that, and at the same time hold the extreme highlight values in the sky, that's Nirvana. Yes, we could use reflectors, lights, or crank things up in post, or wait for the sun to move, but that's not the point - having good DR as a point of departure is surely the point. And, like the magnificent photographs of the past century of stills' fine art suggests, Digital filmmakers still have a lot to explore when it comes to available light. Thanks to Dragon.

 

[António Fagundes]

If I were Jim, I'd be very thankful for people like Antonio, whose educated and constructive criticism are the only way to help ascertain problems with the new sensor and make things better. All new (and established) products have weak areas and room for improvement. All of them.

On the same token, the almost blind loyalty of those who've been extolling the virtues of RED since the original M model back in 2007 and their constant shushing of those who bring up legitimate concerns are of of no help whatsoever to the people trying to truly develop a product to be the absolute best it can be. So for crying out loud, those who feel the need to constantly defend RED, relax, Jim, Jarred and co. have proven they can do a stellar job defending their lunch from the bullies who wanna take it away. Instead, sit back and actually read some of those posts that actually bring up very valid points. Who knows, you might yet learn something, which I assume, is the reason we all spend so much of our precious time on these forums. Whoever feels the need to address my post, well then, you are exactly the type of person these words were meant for.

If only we all went about our work with the same level of energy, we'd all be masters of our craft by now...

Wonderfully said Rudi. Very wise words.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Wisdom is as much about choosing when and where to say things as it is about what you say.

 

[Sergio Perez]

I respect Antonio, he's a regular poster here and is normally very constructive. I just fail to see his criticism on this Toia test. Saying it isn't pretty or in its maximum is, in my view, hiding the truth from us. This is the test professionals want to see beyond the usual test charts or messing with raw files. A professional doesn't need to see a beautiful green screen Blade Runneresque environment like short like Canon did on the C line presentation. The average joe does. I'm sure a picture like that is on the way by the quantity of renowned cinematographers and filmmakers having it already. We got to have the "first look", the way we wanted to see it. I think its the biggest letter of consideration and respect for the red community Red Digital Cinema company did. A sincere thank you to you guys again. I'm an Epic owner, I like the brand admitedly, but as a professional this Mark short film, like i said before, its exactly what I wanted to see.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

If I were Jim, I'd be very thankful for people like Antonio, whose educated and constructive criticism are the only way to help ascertain problems with the new sensor and make things better. All new (and established) products have weak areas and room for improvement. All of them.

On the same token, the almost blind loyalty of those who've been extolling the virtues of RED since the original M model back in 2007 and their constant shushing of those who bring up legitimate concerns are of of no help whatsoever to the people trying to truly develop a product to be the absolute best it can be. So for crying out loud, those who feel the need to constantly defend RED, relax, Jim, Jarred and co. have proven they can do a stellar job defending their lunch from the bullies who wanna take it away. Instead, sit back and actually read some of those posts that actually bring up very valid points. Who knows, you might yet learn something, which I assume, is the reason we all spend so much of our precious time on these forums. Whoever feels the need to address my post, well then, you are exactly the type of person these words were meant for.

If only we all went about our work with the same level of energy, we'd all be masters of our craft by now...

Rudi, I respect you, and you do say good words here, however they are also so generally addressed that I fill them come my way, and I would not have it so, as I, yes am one of the very first and one of the most supportive of RED, a friend to Jim and Jarred, and many at RED, yet I only support RED because I stand for the product I use to be the best I can find, the best I have used, and continue to use, I am not a fanboy hushing away to anything RED, and if RED was to stop making such a great products, and deliver me a sub quality one, and a sensor that was now to fall far behind my expectations and the reason sI am with RED, then I would drop RED for nay other system that was to best suit my needs, but there is none that can fulfill such a NEED as the RED EPIC has done in the past years and I hope that DRAGON will only elevate that, if not I would never lie about what I see and what I think, so just do not make such statements in here like that as even so they are well heard, they can be also an insult to some..

I have gone to great expense and shared personal time when I could to share the joys brought by the RED Epic in my world travels, I did that on my on coin, to share my excitement with those that could not wait to see, hold and shoot with the RED EPIC, but there is a big difference about supporting the best product to simply make believe some one would withhold truth to gain favor of Jim or Jarred.

Ultimately it is again this very Forum that allowed for things that have come to be, thanks to the communication amongst users, and the presence RED here on a public forum, for the good and the bad.


So while I do understand your wording, and agree that there should not be favoritism in words with false, I also am truly a firm believer that any negativity should only be worded with cause, and not just speculations or misinterpretations, I guess in balance of all things, I fill better now that I said that...

 

[TD Wood]

I respect Antonio, he's a regular poster here and is normally very constructive. I just fail to see his criticism on this Toia test. Saying it isn't pretty or in its maximum is, in my view, hiding the truth from us. This is the test professionals want to see beyond the usual test charts or messing with raw files. A professional doesn't need to see a beautiful green screen Blade Runneresque environment like short like Canon did on the C line presentation. The average joe does. I'm sure a picture like that is on the way by the quantity of renowned cinematographers and filmmakers having it already. We got to have the "first look", the way we wanted to see it. I think its the biggest letter of consideration and respect for the red community Red Digital Cinema company did. A sincere thank you to you guys again. I'm an Epic owner, I like the brand admitedly, but as a professional this Mark short film, like i said before, its exactly what I wanted to see.

++++1

 

[António Fagundes]

I respect Antonio, he's a regular poster here and is normally very constructive. I just fail to see his criticism on this Toia test. Saying it isn't pretty or in its maximum is, in my view, hiding the truth from us. This is the test professionals want to see beyond the usual test charts or messing with raw files. A professional doesn't need to see a beautiful green screen Blade Runneresque environment like short like Canon did on the C line presentation. The average joe does. I'm sure a picture like that is on the way by the quantity of renowned cinematographers and filmmakers having it already. We got to have the "first look", the way we wanted to see it. I think its the biggest letter of consideration and respect for the red community Red Digital Cinema company did. A sincere thank you to you guys again. I'm an Epic owner, I like the brand admitedly, but as a professional this Mark short film, like i said before, its exactly what I wanted to see.

I think this is really silly to turn this post into an attack to those who have an 'opinion' either on the new sensor or on Mark's test.

But listen, this is how this business rolls. People have opinions. People share different tastes. People look for different things. And we are all grown ups to be able to take a criticism. We are all grown ups to be able to stand tall for our work and not fear the criticism, and not turning it into a fight. That only shows insecurity and weakness.

Having said that, I really fail to see where did I ever criticized Mark's test!

My personal opinion is not relevant here. I only questioned clipped highlights. Full stop. Why on earth is that a criticism to Mark's test? Was the clipped highlight there because he didn't expose properly, or was it there because he wanted it there and was just showing it to us, or what? Nada. He did the test, and failed to answer about this. As I read on his Vimeo page that he refers to the people that criticize his test as 'fools'. Well then, to his eyes I'm a fool.

That's fine.

But he can't write his own reviews, that's not how this business rolls.

I'm not a DP, I'm a director. I love all aspects of making a film. Including cinematography, that's why I'm here and that's why I'm eager to shoot Dragon. I don't care about causing a stir, if that stir has a purpose and it's not just nonsense. I think that's what makes this forum tick. Mr Jannard is a master at this. (but no I'm not competing... I just don't think the best answers come from pats on the back but rather from opposed points of view. Then everyone can read the forum and take their own conclusions. I personally love what a Red camera gives me on set, so I don't have that identity problem, and I don't even own a Red (I do own a 5D for personal H264 leisure, rock 'n roll!:cornut so I could shoot on anything I wish and I choose Red. I don't know how many people here that criticize me can say the same thing...

Now I have to say I eagerly await a test by the wonderful Tom Lowe (I absolutely and passionately love his 'Dreamcore' short and besides having beautiful imagery it shows the Epic at some very stressful conditions, if that doesn't show what Red can do, I don't know what does...) or, Mr. Mullen himself, a personal hero of mine. Until then I think I will refrain from giving my opinion on this test.

 

[paul schefz]

Take Mark's shot of the guy against the sky, and now consider that you might want his skin tones to be luminous with good texture and modulation, so you expose and slide that value on up to accomplish that, and at the same time hold the extreme highlight values in the sky, that's Nirvana. Yes, we could use reflectors, lights, or crank things up in post, or wait for the sun to move, but that's not the point - having good DR as a point of departure is surely the point.

the problem is that in order to give that guy in that situation luminous skin with good texture and modulation, you have to give the skin something to make it shine like that...because in that backlit sunset situation, the skin won't just glow, no matter what you expose for or how much DR you have....yes...having 16 stops enables you to bring the tones up to a point where you can see skin, hopefully retain some pleasant skin tone and bring out some detail....but the light hitting it is still so flat and dead that it just won't "glow".....if you want that, it needs to be lit in some way and if you really make it glow, it looks fake and "flashed"because that situation just isn't one when people's skin looks luminous....lighting that kind of situation is a little tricky if you want to make sure it looks natural....regardless, the more DR you have available, the better because the less you have to light it...you just have to make sure you use the right light "character"....

 

[Elsie N]

... Until then I think I will refrain from giving my opinion on this test.

That's all anyone was ever asking. When the cameras are finished and ship, I think your opinion may change and people won't see you as some sort of Wiki-Leaker when you post. '-)

 

[Bill Anderson]

the problem is that in order to give that guy in that situation luminous skin with good texture and modulation, you have to give the skin something to make it shine like that...because in that backlit sunset situation, the skin won't just glow, no matter what you expose for or how much DR you have....yes...having 16 stops enables you to bring the tones up to a point where you can see skin, hopefully retain some pleasant skin tone and bring out some detail....but the light hitting it is still so flat and dead that it just won't "glow".....if you want that, it needs to be lit in some way and if you really make it glow, it looks fake and "flashed"because that situation just isn't one when people's skin looks luminous....lighting that kind of situation is a little tricky if you want to make sure it looks natural....regardless, the more DR you have available, the better because the less you have to light it...you just have to make sure you use the right light "character"....

That "something" is called exposure. If you want to light or fill, or completely sculpt with light, that's your call, but some might choose to exploit the remarkable qualities in any given available light situation. These are changed days, and demand changed mindsets when it comes to such things. We fail the light far more often than the light fails us.

 

[paul schefz]

That "something" is called exposure. If you want to light or fill, or completely sculpt with light, that's your call, but some might choose to exploit the remarkable qualities in any given available light situation. These are changed days, and demand changed mindsets when it comes to such things. We fail the light far more often than the light fails us.

i guess what i meant to say is that no matter how much DR and how much you can play with your exposure and even post production, there are limits....and the reason why i am so excited about dragon is that it will let me get more out of a given situation and help me make the best out of any light....but still...if i need glowing skin....the place to start is the right light...it can be natural and available but in most circumstances you need a little helper for that....but not every situation calls for glowing skin either....

 

[Elsie N]

If I were Jim, I'd be very thankful for people like Antonio, whose educated and constructive criticism are the only way to help ascertain problems with the new sensor and make things better. All new (and established) products have weak areas and room for improvement. All of them.

....

The thing is, this camera sensor has been tested in house and probably by some very well established professionals for some months time now. Antonio acknowledges that this is a quick and dirty public stress test and he is simply pointing out problems of the stress test rather than problems with the camera. Most of us understand that but many look for the problems without allowing for the stress (for the tester as well, I would imagine) created from such a short and wide-ranging set of test conditions.

Jim said some time ago they would not release a camera as a beta cam anymore. He said he had learned his lesson. That tells me he doesn't need anyone helping him find the weaknesses of Dragon. Their professional camera makers will do that themselves.

When it's released as a finished product and someone doesn't like the way some aspect of the image appears on their camera, fine... post that on REDuser. But for now, there are vultures circling REDuser seeking out posts that they can use to damage the reputation of the Dragon.

If they can't make a better camera than RED, then all that is left is to plant seeds of doubt that they hope will sprout and grow in the brains of any customers they might otherwise lose.