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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DRAGON in the used marketplace - question

Jarred said on a post about this on Fb that they will looking at to change this, If I understood well.

To me, even if I paid my dragon super quickly and it's my Backup cam now, it's rude to say that 4 years there is no repairs possible, even from 3rd party.

Let's see
 
I am curious how people here would solve this problem. You design a camera. You buy parts to build it. The companies that make those parts no longer make those parts. You run out of those parts. Now what? Seriously? I have a 2011 Scarlet MX. The most unfixable camera in the unfixable list. And you know what? I am not worried at all. I could buy another one if it failed for next to no money, in part, because they don't service them anymore. YMMV.
 
2 months ago, I sold my Dragon Epic together with a nearly new EVF OLED DSCM2 for 8.5K. I also added my old Red media, 3 ok-ish batteries and some accessories that make only sense with this particular camera.

In my opinion, with Canon's FF C500Mk coming in December and Sony's FX9 being out at the same time, sub 30-40k ready-to-shoot cine cameras will be getting heavily under pressure. I've shot with a 500MK2 prototype and I will say this: There won't be a meaningful market for any Red or other camera above 20k that is not an Arri or perhaps a Sony Venice. Even Monstro's top-tier market will get a severe hit. Why? Because FF is already the thing of course and 4K+ too, nothing particular innovative. Canon's C500MK2 ticks all the cinema boxes: 6k RAW, FF, S35mm, anamorphic, proper sound, superb EVF, affordable media, lightweight modular design and very good colour at less than 25k. And, of course, a reasonable maintainance time period.

I'm writing this because the OP asked what a Epic Dragon is worth. Truth is, Dragon's colour was and still is good, and has a nice texture. But the OLPF is on the agressive/blurry side and the sensitivity not up to date. It's a fine camera for filmstudents and low budget filmmaking which makes it realistically worth approx. 4k give and take.

The good news is that Red will have to drop prices heavily if they want to stay in the market, think of Monstro for 15k. Or they innovate to stay relevant. Interesting times for us who shoot and make films.

Hans
 
I agree with Hans 100%.
Thanks,
Tim


Hans von Sonntag said:
2 months ago, I sold my Dragon Epic together with a nearly new EVF OLED DSCM2 for 8.5K. I also added my old Red media, 3 ok-ish batteries and some accessories that make only sense with this particular camera.

In my opinion, with Canon's FF C500Mk coming in December and Sony's FX9 being out at the same time, sub 30-40k ready-to-shoot cine cameras will be getting heavily under pressure. I've shot with a 500MK2 prototype and I will say this: There won't be a meaningful market for any Red or other camera above 20k that is not an Arri or perhaps a Sony Venice. Even Monstro's top-tier market will get a severe hit. Why? Because FF is already the thing of course and 4K+ too, nothing particular innovative. Canon's C500MK2 ticks all the cinema boxes: 6k RAW, FF, S35mm, anamorphic, proper sound, superb EVF, affordable media, lightweight modular design and very good colour at less than 25k. And, of course, a reasonable maintainance time period.

I'm writing this because the OP asked what a Epic Dragon is worth. Truth is, Dragon's colour was and still is good, and has a nice texture. But the OLPF is on the agressive/blurry side and the sensitivity not up to date. It's a fine camera for filmstudents and low budget filmmaking which makes it realistically worth approx. 4k give and take.

The good news is that Red will have to drop prices heavily if they want to stay in the market, think of Monstro for 15k. Or they innovate to stay relevant. Interesting times for us who shoot and make films.

Hans
Click to expand...
 
I bought my scarlet 2 months before RED announced they would no longer support it.To say I was disappointed is an understatement.It was a huge investment for me at the time.It was a risk which didn't pay off for me.I will never buy a RED again,no matter how good they are.I now shoot with a Panasonic eva1 which suits my style of shooting.It has its drawbacks but it is cheap and the colour science is pleasing for me.The new Sony and Canon look very promising indeed and for a price that's hard to beat.
 
I am curious how people here would solve this problem. You design a camera. You buy parts to build it. The companies that make those parts no longer make those parts. You run out of those parts. Now what? Seriously?
Click to expand...

It's pretty simple really. Step one - design something for longevity. Don't use components that have one supplier and are going to vanish in a couple of cycles. Or design more sub assemblies so you can substitute different components.

Lets just for arguments sake say that that's impossible. You are at the whim of your suppliers. So when you planned for a 5% failure rate, and bought spare parts for that, triple it to 15%, buy that many parts. That solves the problem right quick. Sure everything gets a little more expensive, but I would much rather have my camera be a little more expensive, but retain it's value longer.

Or, if the cameras are going to be disposable, they better get a lot cheaper. I'm not going to be pissed if my Z Cam can't be repaired.

Nick
 
Bob Gundu said:
For those comparing RED to Arri support for legacy products, do you have any idea how much Arri repair costs are? I'm surprised people who bought used cameras at a discount are complaining. DSMC1 came out in 2011. That is ridiculously old for camera tech. We are moving to DSMC3 next year.
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That is not reasonable to me. My Canon 5d m3 is a true workhorse and I still use it for photography and it does just fine while being released in 2012. Being "old camera tech" is no justification for lack of support. I'm not asking for new features. I just want to be able to have my camera serviced when there are problems.

The whole point of referring to ARRI for support is not based on price. Its based on SUPPORT. Me and I'm sure a lot others just want to feel secure that our purchases are not a waste.
 
Jamil Stubbs said:
That is not reasonable to me. My Canon 5d m3 is a true workhorse and I still use it for photography and it does just fine while being released in 2012. Being "old camera tech" is no justification for lack of support. I'm not asking for new features. I just want to be able to have my camera serviced when there are problems.

The whole point of referring to ARRI for support is not based on price. Its based on SUPPORT. Me and I'm sure a lot others just want to feel secure that our purchases are not a waste.
Click to expand...

The canon camera is a highly mass produced product in the millions with service centres around the world. The RED is a tiny niche product in comparison.
 
Bob Gundu said:
The canon camera is a highly mass produced product in the millions with service centres around the world. The RED is a tiny niche product in comparison.
Click to expand...

Being in a "niche market' does not forgive a company to provide a short life cycle of its product. I would argue the company should provide a long lifespan to attract a life long customer base. That is how the usual market works.
 
The EU has just brought in legislation of 'Right To Repair'. At the moment I believe it only applies to household appliances but there is growing calls for it to be rolled out to lots of products. They are forcing Apple to make their products more repairable under greater accountability to reduce landfill and reduce climate change. It will be interesting to see how this moves forward.
 
Iain Philpott said:
The EU has just brought in legislation of 'Right To Repair'. At the moment I believe it only applies to household appliances but there is growing calls for it to be rolled out to lots of products. They are forcing Apple to make their products more repairable under greater accountability to reduce landfill and reduce climate change. It will be interesting to see how this moves forward.
Click to expand...

RED shouldn't need legislation to do this. Just needs to consider its customer base. Just within the last year, the indie crowd I hang around with has turned extremely sour on RED. This was never the case before. I myself am flummoxed by the thought that my Dragon could become a paperweight soon as it hits any minor or major issue next year. I'm not in the rental business to make money back on the camera before it's end-of-life, and to ask all customers to be so, is not cool.

With DSMC3 coming out next year, promising to make obsolete in terms of demand, the models I currently have, it'll be a tough situation. I'm already dealing with the 5" RED monitor being unrepairable, and RED is offering a 10% discount on a new monitor. That's like asking me to spend thousands instead of a couple of hundred to get the monitor repaired, which has seen low and light usage. This same thing will now be the case with the entire camera model ecosystem.

I'm simplifying here for the sake of brevity. So please don't bother presenting counter arguments. What I'd like, is to understand how and why RED's future moves will be of huge value to filmmakers, even more so than they absolutely have been in the past.

p.s. ARRI's rumored low-cost camera model will give intense competition to RED. More so than anytime, RED has to take a hit of some kind, but keep and even build up loyalty in its user base, especially those who've been with them for a while. This is coming from me -- who joined with EPIC-X, upgraded to Dragon, bought a second RED -- EPIC-W... and am considering the board upgrades for the epic-w... so I'm not just saying any of this without skin in the game.
 
This is indeed outrageous. DRAGON cameras (at least DSMC-1) are basically worthless now. I bought my Epic Dragon back in March of 2015 and speaking for myself at least, the only way forward I see is continuing to shoot with my camera for however long it remains functional. I haven't had a single issue with it in the last 4 years so I'm not really worried. Its images also remain as amazing as they were back when it was released.

With that being said though, I don't see myself buying another RED in the future, seeing how quickly the end of service came about.
 
Ive given up on camera ownership.. i just rent.. i sold my scarlet w last year for a bmpcc4k, and my epic x is literally a paper weight. Expensive cameras are tough for ROI when i can rent an alexa mini package on share grid for 400
 
Nikhil Kamkolkar said:
Yep. Can't speak for others, but I'm not looking for upgrades to dsmc1, but the drop for repairs and parts is hard to swallow. Although as a business owner and entrepreneur myself, I understand it makes TOTAL sense for RED logistically speaking. But as a long-time supporter, it's a disaster for the goodwill towards RED, which I'm finding is in shorter and shorter supply from my interactions out there. I continue to support the rebel though. The one that actually made things happen even if they are currently behind the curve. What will be more devastating for RED is the new ARRI low-cost value-laden camera that will soon come out (rumor status! so don't ask me questions about it)
Click to expand...

Wish I knew more about this rumor?

Might lead the ARRI ALEXA Classic cameras to crash down in prices to even more affordable levels....
 
I really do love the images from my Scarlet Dragon. Even if I wanted to buy a Gemini, selling my Dragon is a much less attractive purchase because the buyer wouldn’t be able to get it serviced. Even the other parts lose value because they work on a camera that can’t be serviced. I have to keep it and that means no new Gemini for me.

I think this will effect the loyalty of REDusers who haven’t, for whatever reason, stayed up with the upgrades. For me, the upgrade features weren’t that important. I failed to realize that it was more than features. It was the only way to keep a serviceable camera.

I don’t know how companies manage this. Do they buy parts for repair only? I know one thing. My decades old Nikon 70 - 200 had a cracked focus selection ring and I was able to get it repaired. I know, apples/oranges but it makes me feel great about Nikon - so grateful.

Five years? That’s it? Man...
 
Currently 20k to 25k can get you a W 8k kit. I'm on the fence about purchasing due to DSMC3 is around the corner. Will the plug get pulled on DSMC2 anytime soon? I'm so torn on this....
 
I thought about selling - looking at what I could get to replace it. Then I got back to a project I am working on shot on the Dragon. The images, especially since IPP2 are beautiful. Screw it. I’ll just risk it. I’m not selling. I’m just going to keep on shooting with it until I can’t.
 
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