DRAGON in the used marketplace - question

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Hi folks, looking to sell my Dragon, very reluctantly, which has very low hours as I also have an EPIC-W and need to raise some cash for upgrading it and fund a feature I'm planning to shoot this year.

What will the brain alone fetch these days? Before I come up with a price for the for sale section of these forums, would love to hear if anyone is willing to share their experiences or expectations either in this thread or privately via DMs.

I'm based on the east coast (NY/NJ). Many thanks!

Nikhil

 

[Zack Birlew]

It's a tricky time for Dragon sellers. I've been keeping an eye out since last summer when we were desperately looking for a backup cam as we had a power issue scare on our RED One MX (thankfully it turned out to be an accessory issue) and they were roughly around the $10,000-17,000 then as we were trying to find one for a little less for our budget's sake but none were around. A little over a year later and prices started going down to $9,000-14,000 or so but since the Blackmagic Pocket 4K and 6K came out, things have been rather wild with pricing. I've seen auctions for as little as $5,000 for Epics, MX usually hits this marker and goes even less but some Dragons too, granted as body-only usually. I looked things up a bit the other night after not checking for a while and now there's auctions where it's just delusional high pricing ($20K+) and some going around the $8,000-$12,000 area. New cameras are rolling out and support is dwindling for DSMC1 cameras, if not being entirely gone by now through RED, I haven't checked in a while, and 6K isn't a top headline feature anymore when the Pocket 6K and Panasonic S1H are making the rounds now with newer processing and modern low light standards for far less. It's only going to get lower and lower from here and unless there's a killer deal for one, I'm personally not interested in a DSMC1 Dragon as a new main camera anymore, there's affordable 6K options now and 8K is around the corner, so I'll be riding things out with my RED One MX, Pocket 4K, and Sony A7S for the meantime. Hopefully that helps you determine a price and gives you a look at buyer's mindset at this point and ultimately it depends what's included if it's not just the brain.

 

[Nick Gardner]

I sold my epic dragon about exactly a year ago. Put it on ebay, priced to sell. No mount lens mount, but a bunch of media, a monitor, all the free crap you collect, side handle etc. Got $9k, which is about what I felt it was worth. I would expect less now.

Nick

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Thanks guys. That's useful info.

 

[Mike P.]

Depends on if it's DSMC1 or DSMC2... I would hope a Weapon 6k will still fetch ~$8k+ (~$10k kitted?).

Coincidentally there was an Epic-M dragon posted on the same day you posed this thread that has since sold. It had everything needed to shoot (except monitor, battery, and lenses) and was listed at only $6500. That's likely a direct result of Pocket 6k and Komodo.

I can't imagine how inexpensive (kitted) Ravens and Scarlet-Ws will be as soon as Komodo drops... probably ~$4k shootable Scarlet-W packages (it's only 5k, has limited fps, and limited compression ratio)... potentially half that for raven. Dragon-X brains might shift down to <$5k too... I guess that's what happens when you hang your hat on resolution; 2K Alexa Classics are still selling for more than 6k Epic-Dragons because ALEV3 still has the juice.

Exciting times for the used market though!

 

[alexandre Chailan]

Well, wait a bit, look at this end of year : https://support.red.com/hc/en-us/ar...C9eD6k#h_55375674-07e4-4c69-aead-16bdd9685b68

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Well, wait a bit, look at this end of year : https://support.red.com/hc/en-us/ar...C9eD6k#h_55375674-07e4-4c69-aead-16bdd9685b68

Exactly. Terrifying.

 

[Timothy Jones]

Im so disappointed with this . Does Arri stop support of the Alexa after four years? Hell, no.
Red is losing me as a customer because of this.
My next camera is a C500 MKii .

Thanks,
Tim

 

[Hugh Scully]

I bought my Scarlet Dragon in 2015 new from RED.

 

[Mike P.]

Well, wait a bit, look at this end of year : https://support.red.com/hc/en-us/ar...C9eD6k#h_55375674-07e4-4c69-aead-16bdd9685b68

What’s even more bogus about this is that I’d bet ~80%+ of Dragon owners probably don’t even know about it (has anyone received any correspondence from RED saying time is running out?)

I wouldn’t have known had I not seen this thread.

 

[Timothy Jones]

Its an outrage !

 

[Himalaya Kilaru]

Ya thats unfotunate..I wonder how used dsmc2 body prices get affected by this whole thing ...

 

[Tom S]

I think it sucks RED will stop supporting Dragons. I love my Dragon and don't really have any reason to change. I think the RED Epic Dragon is the best value in the used camera market.

 

[Zack Birlew]

I know what you mean, it’s what I felt with my RED One MX, but that was because of lack of parts from the various places RED got things from and no longer has deals with but with everything coming from RED with the newer cameras supposedly, it just seems like there’s no reason why they would run out of parts or be able to adapt new parts or even make better ones (ie. revised power board, revised CPU board, etc.) There’s a definite gap in support compared to the competition and a wide opening for someone to make replacement parts for these cameras which are just in their prime with new competing 6K cameras. But it is what it is until RED or somebody does something. Imagine RED making new boards for the older cameras and releasing RED OVERHAULED cameras at discount and giving the users of old cameras options to overhaul their cameras with faster and cooler running boards with their existing sensors with the only caveat being once the sensor is done then that’s it. With this end of support for Dragon, for end users, it means cheaper RED camera options on the used market because now that Dragon support is officially done, the value drops off a cliff like it did for the RED One.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

...because now that Dragon support is officially done, the value drops off a cliff like it did for the RED One.

Yep. Can't speak for others, but I'm not looking for upgrades to dsmc1, but the drop for repairs and parts is hard to swallow. Although as a business owner and entrepreneur myself, I understand it makes TOTAL sense for RED logistically speaking. But as a long-time supporter, it's a disaster for the goodwill towards RED, which I'm finding is in shorter and shorter supply from my interactions out there. I continue to support the rebel though. The one that actually made things happen even if they are currently behind the curve. What will be more devastating for RED is the new ARRI low-cost value-laden camera that will soon come out (rumor status! so don't ask me questions about it)

I hope RED gives the Dragon folks a path to upgrade to the Gemini atleast, a path that is as value-laden as the dropping of support for the Dragon is going to be value-devastating.

One can hope...

 

[Christopher S Johnson]

Four years is a totally reasonable lifespan for a camera. With the way technology progresses that lifespan will only continue to get shorter. If you can't get the value out of it in four years, prolly shouldn't buy it...

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Four years is a totally reasonable lifespan for a camera. With the way technology progresses that lifespan will only continue to get shorter. If you can't get the value out of it in four years, prolly shouldn't buy it...

I am interested in why one might feel things are going faster and lifespan is getting shorter? What technology is progressing super fast on the camera side? Arri's very useful latest cameras the LF mini uses the exact same chip design its first mass produced camera Alexa used nearly 10 years ago...? I feel you are correct that 3-4 years is about right! I also feel with cameras you want to be able to get your money back in 2 years or just don't take the risk.. BUT apart from the fast moving (encrouching) low end I don't see any major picture advancements killing bigger investiments. What kills camera investments is romantic bad decisions, brutal unsustainable cannibalising competition and market trends relating to brand acceptance.

I haven't regreted upgradeing mutiple cameras from M to MX to Epic MX to Dragon to Monstro (with a side helping of Gemini ;-) but I have had all along a very carefully triple tested perspective on this one and can def defend seeing the Monstro as basically a Dragon but more sensitive..... and when looking at the Dragon..? Colour fideilty was the only big headline benefit of the Dragon over the MX chip..! Format size aside a good DP carefully working with a Epic Dragon will produce images as good as anyone! (assuming lighting is not a issue;-) and speaking of lighting!? Now there is an area about to change massively! Would be nervous making a big speculative investment in 'dumb' lighting!

 

[Mike P.]

Four years is a totally reasonable lifespan for a camera. With the way technology progresses that lifespan will only continue to get shorter. If you can't get the value out of it in four years, prolly shouldn't buy it...

I am interested in why one might feel things are going faster and lifespan is getting shorter? What technology is progressing super fast on the camera side? Arri's very useful latest cameras the LF mini uses the exact same chip design its first mass produced camera Alexa used nearly 10 years ago...? I feel you are correct that 3-4 years is about right! I also feel with cameras you want to be able to get your money back in 2 years or just don't take the risk.. BUT apart from the fast moving (encrouching) low end I don't see any major picture advancements killing bigger investiments. What kills camera investments is romantic bad decisions, brutal unsustainable cannibalising competition and market trends relating to brand acceptance.

I haven't regreted upgradeing mutiple cameras from M to MX to Epic MX to Dragon to Monstro (with a side helping of Gemini ;-) but I have had all along a very carefully triple tested perspective on this one and can def defend seeing the Monstro as basically a Dragon but more sensitive..... and when looking at the Dragon..? Colour fideilty was the only big headline benefit of the Dragon over the MX chip..! Format size aside a good DP carefully working with a Epic Dragon will produce images as good as anyone! (assuming lighting is not a issue;-) and speaking of lighting!? Now there is an area about to change massively! Would be nervous making a big speculative investment in 'dumb' lighting!

Both of these, to me, point to why ending Dragon support is so infuriating... It's not about recouping the investment, it's about feeling forced to needlessly upgrade to an "updated" camera system of similar IQ (DSMC2) or be left with unsupported hardware (which is kinda risky for anything mission critical).

Aside from noise/low-light, most could argue any flavour of Dragon (DSMC1, DSMC2, 6k, 5k, 4.5k WS) has more in common with gemini/helium/monstro (the "contemporary" sensors), than it does with MX or M. Dragon has similar DR, similar colour handling, decent resolution/frame rate/compression ratio, a lightweight form factor, yet the only reason they'll be unsupported is because RED is choosing to leave you high and dry. Anyway you cut it, that's haggard for a $35k~50k investment of ~2014... (And not just because Arri is happily still rocking support for ~10 year old Alexas.)

I dunno, it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth (not as bad as the mag scenario, but still chintzy.)

 

[Jamil Stubbs]

As a dragon scarlet owner.....I'm not happy. I paid 10k for a used dragon and I spent another 10k + on accessories( Motion mount, SSD's, Red Bomb, OLPF, armor, etc... ) I'm happy with the quality it provides. Truly good stuff but to now know there is no support ...I'm truly thinking about switching to arri. What really pisses me off is the learning curve. I make the switch to RED. Just started to get over the hump on workflow and they announce no support. Makes it really hard to enjoy the RED ecosystem. I swear a cam operator in NY told me to buy a arri. I'm slowly beginning to think he was right.....I hare noticed all the DSMC1 cam's have all of sudden flooding the marketplace. I'm even seeing used DSMC2 come down dramatically in price. RED what are are you doing??? I want to support you but you got to support me also....I do love what the camera provides.. But if you can't back up the product I will make the switch to arri which has a longer lifespan...

 

[Bob Gundu]

For those comparing RED to Arri support for legacy products, do you have any idea how much Arri repair costs are? I'm surprised people who bought used cameras at a discount are complaining. DSMC1 came out in 2011. That is ridiculously old for camera tech. We are moving to DSMC3 next year.