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Dragon Highlights - Bizzare issues - Horizontal smearing

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Ivan Kovax

Ivan Kovax

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Hey Guys,

So I just got my Dragon back from Cali (maintainence etc) and I noticed something that I have never really seen to this extent before. Whenever I shoot into high key sources (eg into a window, or with a light in shot) that source sends a streak across the ENTIRE image. You can see it via the stills attached. I have contacted red about this twice, and they dismissed this as a standard issue amongst CMOS sensors. I was told that this effect was repeatable in the lab and normal behaviour of the sensor. Is this honestly true in your findings too fellas? I find this very hard to believe, and my old MX never did this, my red one never did this, no alexa, f55, c300 I ever used did it to this extent with nearly EVERY high key source I have shot into.

Even if exposure is brought within range the effect is still clearly seen. I have included one still without the high key source in shot as a comparison. With or without matte box makes no difference.

Look at the hard line and discoloration in the images.

Quite confounding, and irritating. I would love to start a discussion regarding this in terms of cause and solution. I am assuming if Red could replicate this effect in their lab, that you guys should too? I have a hard time believing it is the sensor alone. It seems to me that there is some strange light bouncing around on the inside of the camera, but only on the horizontal axis. If i rotate the camera 45 degrees, this effect DISAPPEARS entirely. If it was the cmos sensor, it should still theoretically remain.

I want to get to the bottom of this! Pls refer to attached stills is this folder on mega that I have linked to for the purposes of this thread. I have included both the r3d and a few jpegs. Thanks

https://mega.co.nz/#F!ugxA0KJB!vxvilRCpMvCP3CgskTOaUA

Ivan
 
This is the gate flare that is being talked about in numerous threads already. Some like it, some hate it, some are trying to flock the inside of their mounts to limit reflections. I am not sure what the official Red stance is on the issue, some claimed they are working on different lens mounts but hell if I know whats going on... I am a firm supporter of Red and love their gear, but I have to admit I hate what some Arri fan boys are saying about this issue and the OLPF V2 sensitivity/deb. A shooter I really respect told me the other day "I shouldn't say this as a cinematographer...but the Alexa is a point and shoot, anything you shoot on it looks good out of the box". I think that sentiment along with brand equity is why he prefers Arri... I love my Red, I woke up at 5am to post pics from my Red on FB today just to show how great Dragon is, I just wish Arri supporters were a little more lenient about issues like gate flare and sensitivity on Dragon, it really kind of sucks when everyone in the camera dept is talking junk about the 14k I just spent on rocket x and Dragon upgrade lmfao! damn you arri fans lmfao, but I think Red is working on solutions...I know the sensitivity issues are being taken care of with the OLPF switcher being implemented, as for gate flare no idea where Red stands on the issue...


EDIT:

Ignore the above comment from me, its CMOS artifact not Gate Shadow, I am wrong
 
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I am seeing the gate flare a lot with my Dragon. Ive shot in the same location, with similar lighting and time etc that i did with the Epic MX and never had the issue with the Epic. Had a lot of issues with it on a shoot recently which was frustrating.

A.
 
This is supposedly a CMOS artifact that all CMOS camera have but it is the only camera I've seen where you can actually see the problem. Every camera I looked at, even cheap DLSR, will shoot a shot like that without the smearing. No news if it is being fixed.

You should also keep an eye out for the gate shadow: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?119888-Gate-shadow-On-OLPF1-amp-2
 
I don't think this is the gate flare we were discussing in previous threads... or is it? All I have seen discussed is that usnusual gate flare you get (and can kill/remove) by appropriate flagging (around the edge of frame). What I am talking about is this horizontal flaring/smearing whenever a high key source is in shot. It spreads over the entire image. Please look at the files I attached.

This has nothing to do with red bashing... I just want my camera to work how it is supposed to. I love the dragon, but this flaring/smearing is as confusing and annoying as !$%@$#%@. And I spent a lot of money on this gear too. I don't give a damn who bashes it or not. I use what camera I want to, and right now I want my Red to work how it is supposed to. Yes, many great movies have been shot on the dragon, and I'll probably be shooting a feature on it at the end of the year, but that isn't the point of my post. Solutions.

"as of right now this is a characteristic on all the cameras. It is also a common characteristic with all CMOS sensor cameras, not just ours."

This is the response that was given to me. Unfortunately no other camera I tested this on displays the same characteristic. I would like to shoot into high key sources at some point with dragon... as it is a pretty common use of a camera. You know. Shooting into a window...
 
It is 100% not a flare. This is electronic problem. Asking about a legitimate problem with the camera isn't bashing.

You're right, the official stance of "as of right now this is a characteristic on all the cameras. It is also a common characteristic with all CMOS sensor cameras, not just ours." may be technically correct but Dragon is the only camera not correcting it in-camera. I've heard that if you pixel peep other cameras you can find where other manufacturers are adding green to offset the artifact but the point not to be overlooked is that can't see the artifacting when it is applied.

The gate shadow is a mechanical problem though. Absolutely no news on that front either as far as I know.
 
Paul J Steinberg said:
It is 100% not a flare. This is electronic problem. Asking about a legitimate problem with the camera isn't bashing.

You're right, the official stance of "as of right now this is a characteristic on all the cameras. It is also a common characteristic with all CMOS sensor cameras, not just ours." may be technically correct but Dragon is the only camera not correcting it in-camera. I've heard that if you pixel peep other cameras you can find where other manufacturers are adding green to offset the artifact but the point not to be overlooked is that can't see the artifacting when it is applied.

The gate shadow is a mechanical problem though. Absolutely no news on that front either as far as I know.
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If RED was able to correct for it in Camera with the Red One and the Epic MX, why can't they do it for dragon?
 
Gunleik - when you get more of a chance to play around with it, can you let us know what your results are?

What is curious is that the smearing is MAGENTA tinged. Is this perhaps a bizarre artifact of the olpf which is similarly coloured?
 
Donald MJ Anderson said:
Good point.
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What I want to know is if all cameras are displaying this effect, how are Fincher, Jackson, Soderbergh etc. mitigating this rather obvious effect when shooting into high key sources? In fact, how are we all on this forum mitigating this effect? My project in November will be using a lot of high key sources. If this isn't fixed by then, this will be rather problematic. Again (sigh) what is the workaround?
 
Ivan Kovax said:
What I want to know is if all cameras are displaying this effect, how are Fincher, Jackson, Soderbergh etc. mitigating this rather obvious effect when shooting into high key sources? In fact, how are we all on this forum mitigating this effect? My project in November will be using a lot of high key sources. If this isn't fixed by then, this will be rather problematic. Again (sigh) what is the workaround?
Click to expand...

I've just experienced this on a shoot with my new Dragons - not too happy.....
 
Brian D. Goff said:
I've just experienced this on a shoot with my new Dragons - not too happy.....
Click to expand...

Ok. So we have established that this is a problem. At least I know I am not going crazy (regarding this issue anyway).

any... solutions... hmmnn?
 
Thanks gunleik. Lets get this all sorted. As a community, I think we can work this out quickly.
 
Ivan Kovax said:
Ok. So we have established that this is a problem. At least I know I am not going crazy (regarding this issue anyway).

any... solutions... hmmnn?
Click to expand...
there are a lot of posts about this here (if they haven't been removed) the official answer is: "this is a CMOS issue, it's not an issue, deal with it, red are working on it,...." i never had any of this with scarlet or epic and i don't think the solution of : "just shoot a slightly different angle" is just not a good solution either.
 
Christof Paul said:
there are a lot of posts about this here (if they haven't been removed) the official answer is: "this is a CMOS issue, it's not an issue, deal with it, red are working on it,...." i never had any of this with scarlet or epic and i don't think the solution of : "just shoot a slightly different angle" is just not a good solution either.
Click to expand...

So basically the solution is a cop-out? huh...
 
Christof Paul said:
there are a lot of posts about this here (if they haven't been removed) the official answer is: "this is a CMOS issue, it's not an issue, deal with it, red are working on it,...."
Click to expand...

RED acknowledges it exists as a CMOS problem but I have not read that RED are working to fix it. If Red have can you link to the quote because it would help inform this thread. Thanks.
 
I have a hunch that this is being worked on. It can also be limited significantly through an input LUT in post, so I'd hope it is fixable through a calibration update.

(This is BTW speculative opinion, not a fact.)
 
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