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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon Heat

Gunleik Groven said:
Actually sort of disagree.
He rentd a cam. It should just work.
The ones renting it to him should have set it up and informed.
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100% agree. DRAGON is a new camera. Period. It's not an "Epic +" - it's a new camera. People need time to test it - OR - rent it from a rental house that has taken the time to know it and can provide the proper technical supprt. If you rent from an owner/operator instead of a rental house - that assumes you don't really need any additional support.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
100% agree. DRAGON is a new camera. Period. It's not an "Epic +" - it's a new camera. People need time to test it - OR - rent it from a rental house that has taken the time to know it and can provide the proper technical supprt. If you rent from an owner/operator instead of a rental house - that assumes you don't really need any additional support.
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I 100% dissagree.

It's not the renting house to teach people how to use a tool! If he doesn't know his tool, he better have a good AC that makes the job for him. But he started to whine on CML! The information is out there! It's not the first time people speak about Blackshading, Fan settings!

He rented a working camera but he messed with it!

Did he asked the renting house about the trouble before posting on CML? If they wheren't able to answer him it's a shame for the rental house!

Pat

PS: don't you think RED bashers will be happy to hear on CML "DRAGON OVERHEATS"!!!?
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Actually sort of disagree.
He rentd a cam. It should just work.
The ones renting it to him should have set it up and informed. To have every user calling in to the bombsquad before using the camera is kinda preventive.

And I did not know all the relations before I read Marks post on BlackBalancing.

So I am guilty as well.
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You're not guilty. The issue is that:

1. RED's black shading is unintuitive
2. RED didn't release a clear article like Mark's for users to read

If the user error is caused by a design error... the fault lies with the design error. That's Design 101 - which RED's products repeatedly fail.

The biggest cause for that is simply arrogance.

Someone at RED really needs to start thinking from the humble perspective of: "How are we failing our users? Where are they getting tripped up? How can we redesign things and change the way we work to make it easier for users?"

If you read most comments on the forums here, the attitude is completely wrong. If you get a bad result out of a RED product, it's 500% YOUR FAULT and you are a BAD PERSON for saying so publicly. I hope RED isn't picking up their attitude from that!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
My understanding is that the dragon he was using was consigned at Panavision.

maybe the Panavision techs need a heads up about factory reset and restore settings, etc?

I'm not an AC, but I shoot and DIT, and whenever working with a rental body I do a full factory reset, let the camera warm up, then do a blackshading, and put my own settings in.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Actually sort of disagree.
He rentd a cam. It should just work.
The ones renting it to him should have set it up and informed. To have every user calling in to the bombsquad before using the camera is kinda preventive.

And I did not know all the relations before I read Marks post on BlackBalancing.

So I am guilty as well.

I can kinda understand grumpyness if something feels unreliable, and he got an answer from being grumpy.

The challenge is to avoid grumpyness in the first place...
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Totally agree. (And CML seems to me to be a grumpy place at the best of times, so it's hard to avoid there. ;.)

But I think this one area where Red kinda falls down. My experience is that they put cameras out with only very sketchy guidance. And it leaves them open to all kinds of FUD. For example, Mark's black shading post is brilliant. But why didn't Red publish something like it a couple of years ago?

Red needs to get better at imagining the ways in which users will screw up, and use more avenues to communicate best practices to head them off. Both Red's tech and it's devotion to raw require knowledge. The "figuring it out on your own is part of the fun" philosophy was good for early R1 adopters, but we're waaay past that now. And credit where credit is due--the videos on the web site are great, and the manuals have gotten better. And of course Reducation is important. But there needs to be more. And it needs to be more proactive.

Some of us are quite comfortable with the tech, and with figuring out best practices. But for the brand to live up its promise, there has to be some anti-FUD.


Three examples:

Black shading--which has now been addressed by Mark's post, but which should have been handled by Red.

IR/ND filters. This is not so much of an issue with Dragon, I gather, but some of them are awful on MX. It you use the wrong ones, you can get dreadful color shifts. Others work beautifully. I tested and found a solution that works well and that I trust. But how many are not even aware of the need to consider this?

Red LUTs. It may be that Red doesn't think this necessary because RedLogFilm is designed to match cineon. But people have been asking for a sanctioned Red LUT for ever. It would simplify the choices and make wrong choices less likely. And that would improve the user experience with the camera. Every time I use a LUT in Resolve, I see an Arri LUT. Why dont I see a Red LUT as well. I can drop the Arri LUT on there, and it makes a pretty good starting point. But it also reinforces the "Arri has the color science down" thing.


A lot of good stuff has come from Redusers, Phil H deserves a special shout out, but too often, as with Mark's sticky on Black Shadind and my own on audio cables, these have come out of frustration at seeing rampant mis-information and FUD. That has to get better.
 
From page 45 in the DSMC Ops guide:

CAL: T/E
T or E Green: No change in sensor temperature or exposure from the levels recorded during calibration
T or E Yellow: Slight change in sensor temperature or exposure from the levels recorded during calibration T or E Red: Significant change in sensor temperature or exposure from the levels recorded during calibration The - and + indicate whether the sensor temperature or exposure has decreased or increased
NOTE: The T and E change colors independently of each other.

Mako had said it turned yellow and thought that meant it was overheating which is incorrect.
 
Simple solution to all of this.... Run the FUCKING CAMERA COOLER. If you like adaptive, set the temperature lower... say 50... No drama necessary.

Next?
 
Are you worried about the camera over heating and shutting down? Are you frigging kidding me, I'll rather have the camera warn me before shutting down than continuously run and fry the sensor and electronics. PLEASE CHECK OUT THE ARRI FoRum and read about how many Alexa sensors have gone bust. Mind you the mods at Delete lots of negative Alexa info. FWIT Im an Alexa owner, the camera is not without problems. with the Alexa you'll get a software error at least once a shoot. I've seen the same thing happen on an F65.
 
Main thing is that this seems to be a non-issue.

Except for the communication around black-shading, where Mark has done a great job on informing.
 
I disagree.

As owner/OP I give you more advice than rental houses. Sounds like you do things a bit different, in your shop. Do you own Offhollywood?


Mark L. Pederson said:
If you rent from an owner/operator instead of a rental house - that assumes you don't really need any additional support.
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Will Keir said:
A rental house that gives "proper technical support?" Isn't that the job of the DP and 1st AC? Most houses just give you the gear, not classes on how to use it.

I'd think a owner/OP would give you more advice than rental houses.
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Plenty of rental houses out here provide various levels of support for clients and service whatever needs that they need catered. Note that a good deal of houses out here have cameras owned by experienced Red shooters who also provide support and answer various questions.

Same thing I do when I rent my gear.

Hell, the same thing I do when somebody calls me at 4am on films I'm not even working on.
 
Ha ha.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

The loaner Dragon Jarred let me have spent a day doing this last week:


attachment.php



Set adaptive at 65, never glitched or missed a beat. Yes it got hot. It took the heat. If someone did have heat issues… well either they had a bad camera or I don't know what they did to the bloody thing!

I'm not doing a black shade at the bottom of a fucking volcano!

Mike
 
Mike 'Fireman' Ross said:
Ha ha.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

The loaner Dragon Jarred let me have spent a day doing this last week:

Set adaptive at 65, never glitched or missed a beat. Yes it got hot. It took the heat. If someone did have heat issues… well either they had a bad camera or I don't know what they did to the bloody thing!

I'm not doing a black shade at the bottom of a fucking volcano!

Mike
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LOL Mike... I was just going to post this... Glad you did so yourself... Some times I just don't know what to say anymore to this blubber that pops up here and there about the shit...
 
amazing shots Mike! glad to know it can go into territories far beyond the average shoot!
 
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