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Dragon and Vintage Set for Feature

C

Carlo Zappella

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Hello.

I X-posted this on cinematography.com but nobody picked up on it.
I'll try here


FOREWORD
This is my first posting in this forum and I don’t think it will be my last :). I’m still young and there are lots of things that I don’t know about cinematography. So if I’m wrong somewhere, please correct me and feel free to tell me your thoughts.


I have studied cinematography autodidactively for quite some time now and have a handful of questions as I am currently approaching my first feature film. I can’t really say a lot about it at this moment but it will all come in the future.


THE PROJECT


The film takes place in the late 60s and the sets will be old european buildings and modernist 50s & 60s architecture (Wright, Rose, Bauhaus, …)


My moods are 2001: A Space Odyssey, Dr.Strangelove, Lola Montes, Touch of Evil, Brazil, North by Northwest, Yojimbo and Grand Budapest Hotel


I know it’s a bit colourful and partly entirely different but these are some the films that will inspire the look of this project.


I would love to use film, which there is not enough budget and my first digital choice would be an Alexa. Now, there might not be enough budget for that as well and now, I’m thinking about/kind of pre-decided on a red dragon camera.


I am not looking for a digital look, which sounds funny, but you know what I mean. I also won’t shoot 16mm because I want as much lens coverage as I can get. And I don’t want all that film hassle on my first feature, where I’ll have enough hassles already.
The plan is too use the entire sensor (only possible in 6K) and tuning it down to 4K DPX Seqs. (Also handy for stabilizing shots).


If I’m using vintage lenses and a 1/8 pro mist filter or something like that I’ll be fine.


My first idea was to use 1.33x anamorphic lenses and I would really like to do that to get even more space. I didn’t find any 1.33x anam lens wider than 25mm, which is a 19 on FF (stretched to final image). And I want something a bit wider. More like a 14mm or 16mm FF equivalent.


I thought about using the Letus Anamorphx Adapter. I don’t know how good it is, or what it can and can’t handle as there are few reviews out there. I would really like to test it though, but there are none in Austria, where I live.


I am buying looking into buying lenses for the project and there will be 10-20k euros for that. Why not rent? because you can’t rent any vintage PL glass in Austria and I also really want that glass : ) .


I also thought that maybe the set and dressing alone will have enough vintage flair and I could use newer lenses, like the CP.2s.




THE DREAM
I’m looking for something like this. 14mm - 21mm - 28mm - 35mm - 50mm - 80mm




SOME LENS SET OPTIONS
_
2-3 anamorphic lenses + something like a 14mm Arri/Zeiss PL with an anamorphx (or not)


I am afraid though, that the 14mm shots would look very different than the anam shots. The Anamorphx Adapter could fix some of that, but who knows. I also thought about the Tokina 11-16 cine rehousing but I’m even more worried about fixing up that look opposed to a 14mm Zeiss.
_
An old PL Set + Anam Adapter
_
CP.2s + Anam Adapter


Maybe the 1/8 Filter + the Anam Adapter could deliver our vintage look?


_
Some Cine Mod Set + the Adapter
_
An old PL set and shooting 16:9




ACTUAL QUESTIONS


I would love to hear your thoughts on it and if you have any other ideas or know any other anamorphic adapter aside the LV7200 and the anamorphx.


What other filter I could use for achieving a “vintage look”.


Another approach to this entire thing.








P.S. Sorry if the post is too long : )



 
RE:6k Many of your vintage cine lenses will have porthole/vignette below 28mm focal length.
so will "some" modern ones, as they are optimized for S35, not FF.

RE: Re-framing. don't get used to it. Many of the touchstone films on your list have very precise framing choices that were storyboarded well in advance, and meticulously shot on the production day. ESP Strangelove and Grand Budapest.

Anamorphic: very complex to use for a first project. Get a DP and 1st AC involved who have shot a lot of it and book them on your film.

Anamorphic Lens Availability/Rentals Could You rent from UK or Germany? Get a quote from Hawk on their V-Set, or call Panavision's European branches. They can get you vintage glass to use in modern housings.

Other VIntage. Consider buying a BNCR or Lomo front for your Dragon. this would open up a large number of choices for private owned vintage glass from West and East Europe.

Or... 1st gen Zeiss standard Speed lenses in arri std mount with a pl adapter. 16,24,32,50,85 are the typical lengths.. widely available in EU
only the 32 and up will avoid porthole at 5K and 6K.. 16mm wide open will porthole a little at 4.5K it may still be acceptable to you, exp if you shoot 16x9
\Consider Schneider vintage .. 18mm 20mm 28mm 35mm 40mm 50mm 75mm 100mm all around t2.. very decent 1960s and 1970 glass. Spherical, however

DREAM SET of Focal lengths a vintage Canon 14mm 2.8 or Angenieux !4.5mm for your wide lens, and Leica R for the others lenses.

RE: WIDES in Anamorphic. It's not accidental that you have not seen much beyond 25mm anamorphic. It's super complicated to design such a lens.

Will you actually be able to build sets that could use a 14mm lens? even a 16mm is an extremely wide lens in most applicaitons, and the distortions show up in a hurry on architecture and people outside of the center of frame.

16x9 and crop is not a bad idea.


Give thought to rented vintage cookes s2 and S3 in arri mount with PL adapter is not out of the question, but your focus puller may be irritated by difficulty of the lens mechanical response. Better would be the Rehoused ones... Check with TLS in UK to see if they can rent to you.

Black NET filters, as well as several strenghts of BPM as options. You will want to vary the intensity of filter depending on focal length.

ANAMORPHIC VIA front of lens adapter... Play with the Panasonic 7200 adapter for the old dvx 100... maybe some diopters threaded into the stack or taped in front of it.. reasonably priced, but I can't remember the ratio of the squeeze.

Don't be afraid to call panavision, explain that you are a new film maker, and see if they will work with you to get a rental you can afford that matches your visual desires. You won't own the camera, but the system will work together much more easily than apackage you build from scratch and multiple sources.
 
Last edited:
Hi Christopher.

Thanks so much for your extended answer. I will ask around for some rental quotes.

We want to put as many practical lights in our built and real sets as possible to give us more freedom with ultra wides and crew.

I did look a lot into Leica,Zeiss or Nikon Cine Mods, especially Duclos Lenses. Now, they are FF, so I wouldn't have any problem there. And for the Ultra Wide, I can just use a 15, without anam and crop (which is wider on the Dragon than a 14 on S35 and crop).

Do you think if I mix Cropped and True Anamorphics, the difference will show? I'm a bit worried about the Bokeh, which isn't that much of an issue with 15.

thanks again for your answer
 
That's true, sorry.

It's my first post and I will try to put things where they belong in the future.
 
Carlo Zappella said:
Yeah, I did look into the K35s and I've seen 5 or 6 lens sets for 15k.
Click to expand...

Wow! At that price, I'd buy a set - not seen anything that cheap for ages.
 
a 16mm anamorphic would have the horizontal field of view of an 8mm. Which on Dragon's 6k is around 125 degrees. What I'm saying is I want that lens.
 
I gotta say I'm more and more heading in the Leica-R cine mod set direction. I could pick up 9 lenses from 15 to 135 for 12.000€
 
We carry a nice set of re-housed kowa anamorphics that are all original vintage glass in a modern style housing... http://brainboxcameras.com/product-category/lenses-pl-mount/

Also, the super baltars we carry have a very classic 60's era hollywood look to them, and beautiful flares. Not trying just to promote lenses I rent, but I've had numerous clients sing the praises of using our older more charactered lenses to help them achieve a particular look. In my opinion if you're going for the more pastel-y color tone of the 60's that's more of a film stock issue not a lens issue, and I'm sure could be duplicated through some LUT experimentation.
 
I think it's real important to test before you settle on a final specification for what you want. I'd focus on making a 5 minute short which is a video treatment of your concept. You didn't mention things like compositing, color grading, vfx - so with a concept short I'd work through the camera concepts and the entire workflow to make sure it all fits. This way you can have a good feeling that your final product will work. For even a 5 minute test (final video length), it takes a lot more planning then you'd think. I'd try to shoot the test in a weekend, then spend a few months on post. So you will need to be completely organized for that weekend shoot. I'd try to rent or borrow from friends the equipment for the weekend test. For a test, attempt to get a cinematographer that knows what they are doing, and just wants to play with a bunch of equipment without any commitments (i.e. often high end cinematographers just love shooting, and want any excuse to get back into just playing with equipment, as long as they don't have any prior commitments).
 
The Kowa PL mount 2x anamorphics have a great look when combined with the Dragon. I believe the 40mm covers in 6K/5:4. 40mm in 2x is about as wide as you will see in anamorphic and anything wider will probably vignette in 6K. You will also run into the same issue with any adapter. On a full frame camera the widest you can go with the Letus or the Anamorphot is 50mm. You might be able to get down to 35mm on the Dragon but I suspect it would vignette like crazy as 40mm is pushing it with most lenses.

I would really be interested to see how that Kowa 40mm with a 30mm adapter covers.
 
whens the gig? i could try and cut you a package deal rental, i gotta lot of stuff at houses, and I'm actually looking to pick up some anamorphics which is why i was asking when the gig starts..
 
Carlo Zappella said:
I was surprised, too and checked again, but it's expired : ( How are the K35s? http://www.tv-bay.com/FORSALE/Lenses/Canon/K35_Prime_Lenses_-_PL_Mount/133740.html
Click to expand...

Ahhh - makes sense now :)

The Ad is from June 2012! Prices were lower back then (I bought my zooms, anamorphics and Super Baltars in 2011/2012 before prices rocketed). £14,500 (approx $22K) plus VAT was a decent price for PL mounted versions.

I'd say you'd be looking at double that now for a good set of K35's.
 
Brian Merlen said:
whens the gig? i could try and cut you a package deal rental, i gotta lot of stuff at houses, and I'm actually looking to pick up some anamorphics which is why i was asking when the gig starts..
Click to expand...

Well, we're still in Pre-Pro and it looks as if we'll be there for a while : ) I'm thinking 3rd quarter of 2015, but it'll be in Austria, you know.
 
PatrickFaith said:
I think it's real important to test before you settle on a final specification for what you want. I'd focus on making a 5 minute short which is a video treatment of your concept. You didn't mention things like compositing, color grading, vfx - so with a concept short I'd work through the camera concepts and the entire workflow to make sure it all fits. This way you can have a good feeling that your final product will work. For even a 5 minute test (final video length), it takes a lot more planning then you'd think. I'd try to shoot the test in a weekend, then spend a few months on post. So you will need to be completely organized for that weekend shoot. I'd try to rent or borrow from friends the equipment for the weekend test. For a test, attempt to get a cinematographer that knows what they are doing, and just wants to play with a bunch of equipment without any commitments (i.e. often high end cinematographers just love shooting, and want any excuse to get back into just playing with equipment, as long as they don't have any prior commitments).
Click to expand...

This is really good advice. Yeah, I will definitely test everything before making any commitments and try to get someone who is familiar with RED on features for a weekend .
 
Luke Neumann said:
The Kowa PL mount 2x anamorphics have a great look when combined with the Dragon. I believe the 40mm covers in 6K/5:4. 40mm in 2x is about as wide as you will see in anamorphic and anything wider will probably vignette in 6K. You will also run into the same issue with any adapter. On a full frame camera the widest you can go with the Letus or the Anamorphot is 50mm. You might be able to get down to 35mm on the Dragon but I suspect it would vignette like crazy as 40mm is pushing it with most lenses.

I would really be interested to see how that Kowa 40mm with a 30mm adapter covers.
Click to expand...

No real anamorphic lens, designed for 35mm film, should vignette at 6K, no matter how short is your focal lenght, because 6K 5:4 on Dragon is a bit smaller than 35mm's area for anamorphic.
 
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