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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon and low light noise

Brian Boyer said:
As a point of comparison, here's a link to the trailer for The Age of Adeline. According to IMDb, it was shot on Dragon. At this stage, I don't know how much of it was shot on Dragon or which OLPF was used. With the nature of trailers, it's sometimes difficult to ascertain if you're looking at finished shots or if the images have been altered for effect.

At any rate, the texture in most of these images looks like STH Dragon to me and not film grain that was added in post (although, it may have). Who knows if the film will be released like this or if the release version will have had NR added to reduce or eliminate the texture altogether.


http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/lions_gate/theageofadaline
Click to expand...

I think a lot of the cream/look is coming from the Ana lenses.... I'd guess at the LLO too. Guess we'll wait for more info - not sure if it's a movie I could watch, but my other half said she's interested - guess I'm not the demographic they're looking for! :)
 
Andy White said:
I'd guess at the LLO too.
Click to expand...

There are some scenes where I think the LLO were most likely used.

I forgot to mention Bloom, shot by Khalid Mohtaseb for Lincoln, as another example of what looks to be an unabashed embrace of the STH OLPF. Speaking of embracing, there's a nice little surprise at 5:52 in the diner for those folks stressing over CMOS smear. Undesirable at times? Yes. The end of the world? Lincoln didn't seem to mind.

The lower resolution of this (1280x536) combined with Vimeo compression artifacts are making some of the noise and shadow areas look worse than I'm sure they are, but it looks pretty good nevertheless.

https://vimeo.com/originals/inthemoment/108833436
 
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I take Aaron at his word that this was captured at 1.4. The Camera might default to 2.8 in the metadata for dumb lenses or non electronic lenses. Based on the histogram I do think it is 1.4

This said. I took a WB on the light switch and applied DC2/RG4 and I think the shot looks great. Just pops and the texture seems just right for this lens/exposure combo.

Battistella

kitchentest.jpg
 
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Like David, I did pretty much the same process but bumped the ISO to 1280 and applied a tiny amount of NR and it's smooth as can be in motion. In motion at 4K the noise is already almost invisible in the original clip. It isn't until you look at it as a still that you really notice it. I used DEB + Denoise + Neat Video profile on 20% luminance NR. So when I said tiny amount of noise reduction, I meant it. Dragon does exceptionally well with Neat Video. I'd say it's pretty good for the Skintone/Highlight OLPF.

SKTNhighlight1280ISOt1.4.jpg
 
Timur Civan said:
I dunno guys... I am get jaw dropping spectacular stuff off my dragon HLST. I consistently shoot 800


Add a touch of fill. Just a little. To activate the pixels, give the sensor and DSP/AD a value to process. Works like magic.
Click to expand...

Wow, you're leagues above me... Can you explain what you mean? I'll give it all a try tonight on my time off.
 
Thanks for the confirmation Brian,

Yes, the other REDgammas definitely look better. I really do like the look. I was just worried I didn't perform a calibration or something to help the performance of the camera. This was a quick clip I stole with available light just to see what I got. You're right, the noise shrinks quite a bit at 4K.
 
David, yeah, I tried that combo as well and the image really did seem to "pop"...

Yes, the lens was a Zeiss 50/1.4 that didn't send any of that metadata info to camera. I had it wide open, which could explain some of the softness. The focus was actually somewhere around the pencils or just in front of...
 
So to recap, because it's a little too much for me to go through 16 pages...what settings / process are people recommending for using the skintone OLPF in low light to keep noise at a minimum ? I have a night job coming up with a Dragon and no one seems to have a low light OLPF available here...
 
Clayton,

dragon stores 4 blackshading calibrations do them at 4 different shutter angles and you can cover a spectrum of needs. I get the camera up to temperature and run it in adaptive mode at 62 degrees, or a bit warmer depending on conditions. It takes about 10 seconds to switch calibrations if needs be.

I would not rate low light at 1600-2000 on the STH, I would be more likely to rate at around 500-1280 and checking to see that the histo is not bunched up to the left really keeping an eye on the left goalpost noise, at 50% or less it is pretty manageable. You can Gioscope to see where you might be loosing highlight or shadow detail. Punching in just the tiniest amount of fill, even from a lite panel mini or a 1:1 really helps. A little goes a long way.

I use this strategy because I found that even if it seems dark with enough light hitting the sensor you can push the images quite comfortably in post because you've got a thicker base image.

1. Camera temp and exposure indicators should both be green.
2. Left goal post 60% or less
3. Try to move that histogram off the left side

in terms of gamma choices, the shot I posted above was rg4 applied to the clip after WB straight out of rcx with no curves or additional processing, etc. so it sort of represents what you would see at ISO 800 at 1.4 with rg4 in a zero lighting scenario.

battistella
 
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David Battistella said:
Clayton,

dragon stores 4 blackshading calibrations do them at 4 different shutter angles and you can cover a spectrum of needs. I get the camera up to temperature and run it in adaptive mode at 62 degrees, or a bit warmer depending on conditions. It takes about 10 seconds to switch calibrations if needs be.

I would not rate low light at 1600-2000 on the STH, I would be more likely to rate at around 500-1280 and checking to see that the histo is not bunched up to the left really keeping an eye on the left goalpost noise, at 50% or less it is pretty manageable. You can Gioscope to see where you might be loosing highlight or shadow detail. Punching in just the tiniest amount of fill, even from a lite panel mini or a 1:1 really helps. A little goes a long way.

I use this strategy because I found that even if it seems dark with enough light hitting the sensor you can push the images quite comfortably in post because you've got a thicker base image.

1. Camera temp and exposure indicators should both be green.
2. Left goal post 60% or less
3. Try to move that histogram off the left side

in terms of gamma choices, the shot I posted above was rg4 applied to the clip after WB straight out of rcx with no curves or additional processing, etc. so it sort of represents what you would see at ISO 800 at 1.4 with rg4 in a zero lighting scenario.

battistella
Click to expand...

This is very, very helpful. Thank you David.
I will give this info to my operator shortly.
 
I shoot weddings in dark rooms, especially most receptions. So I light the floor, and put a light on the RED. I use 50% power or less for the light on the RED. Just to fill faces, clothes etc. I set my ISO to 500 STH, or 800 LLO. Then the shadows in the background roll off beautifully. I can jump the iso in post from 500-800 on the STH no problem, and 1250/1600 on the LLO with no worries, however I never have to. The video below was left @ 500 the whole time. The video below was shot with LLO.

The key is lenses. Sharp, good quality and fast. For this I turn to the sigma 18-35mm 1.8 for most work, then use Zeiss CP2 35mm/50mm and Rokinon 35mm/50mm 1/4T lenses.



https://vimeo.com/134918532
 
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steveszol said:
I have noticed my dragon is quite noisy. Even when exposing to a centered histogram at 800+ ISO and no lit up goal posts. Sometimes it so bad it makes me think the camera is f*ed. I shot something recently with the dragon and C300 and the stupid C300 had no grain, while the Dragon had an unreasonable amount. I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this. Is the dragon really this bad in low light? Shouldn't grain just be black. Why is it boosting the low light areas?

And yes I have made sure the camera is black shaded and at the right operating temp and exposure and blaaa blaaa blaaaa.

would love to get this sorted out asap.

Its hard to keep having to tell clients "No no we can remove that grain in post!"
My red one was usually good at 800ISO in any type of lighting.

Could it be something wrong with the camera or is there something I am not doing right?

some test shots I took. https://copy.com/8o6hk4crfNOPdzvy

Here are some TIFFs of the basic tests I shot

https://copy.com/BTpda4TdEGd7Jpfj
Click to expand...


ok.
Advice.
Set your camera to 250.
Keep a right hand biased histogram.
Watch your traffic lights don't all peak.
Done.

Forget about cantered 800 ISO histograms. That just means your shooting at 1600
trust me. Try it.
 
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