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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DR ..a good discussion!!

Thai Christen said:
I see it quite pragmatical:
- big rental houses have no other choice but upgrade to Arri LF and Monstro (and Sony Venice). At the same time they probably dump their older Alexa big cameras
- until there is an Arri LF Mini, the Arri Mini will still going strong and continue its market dominance over Red
- top name DPs will chose their camera of preference - which again will mostly be Arri.
- then there is the crowded and saturated (higher end) market of owner operator. And here Red clearly has its dominance. Gemini is currently the hottest camera in Reds lineup. But wait until ScarletW, Dragon and Helium owners made their up/downgrade to Gemini. Then the price war will start with everyone undercutting in price. We have seen this with Epic and Scarlet. Same game. So for rental houses, Gemini won‘t be as profitable long term. Unless they get their Gemini much ahead of the market and can recoup their investments quickly. Just my guess.
- then there will be the next hot camera in town. Maybe Monstro 6K dual ISO in Dsmc3 body with integrated NDs and user swapable sensor? My dream :-)

Maybe I am just totally wrong and it is all rubbish what I am saying.


PS: for shoulder work, I prefer bigger cameras. Just feels better. But thats me.
Click to expand...


The change is definitely happening.

My high end Top tier DP friends in Germany that very much belonged to team blue and that used to rolled their eyes even if I just mentioned red before....

Now the same squad, emails and ask questions about monstro. And one of them as it seams allready made his decision clear for his next feature. I think more and more will realise what red actually accomplished.

Still there is a lot of hurdles to get over. But quality pictures is king, the rest skull logos and and strange bugs etc. people will over look. Monstro has a great image, so does Gemini.
 
Björn Benckert said:
The change is definitely happening.

My high end Top tier DP friends in Germany that very much belonged to team blue and that used to rolled their eyes even if I just mentioned red before....

Now the same squad, emails and ask questions about monstro. And one of them as it seams allready made his decision clear for his next feature. I think more and more will realise what red actually accomplished.

Still there is a lot of hurdles to get over. But quality pictures is king, the rest skull logos and and strange bugs etc. people will over look. Monstro has a great image, so does Gemini.
Click to expand...
If that is the case, then I am happy for Red and its user base.
But it is not that it is happening from today to tomorrow. This will take time.

Furthermore, I think it would help if Red streamline their products into three segments. Suggestion:
- top level, Red Millenium DXL2 version with Monstro at $80K. Main competitor Alexa LF (and Alexa 65?)
- medium level, Monstro 8K Dscm2 at $50K. Main competitor Sony Venice, Arri Mini
- entry level: Gemini 5K Dsmc2 at $20K

Leave Dragon and Helium to second hand market.
Right now, it is kinda confusing with all the different Red sensors.

And yes, get rid of the skull logo. Or make US version with skull, and no skull for the rest of the world ;-)
Not that it has bothered me, but ...

EDIT: but I am sure, Red know their financials better than me :-)
 
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Thai Christen said:
Furthermore, I think it would help if Red streamline their products into three segments. Suggestion:
- top level, Red Millenium DXL2 version with Monstro at $80K. Main competitor Alexa LF (and Alexa 65?)
- medium level, Monstro 8K Dscm2 at $50K. Main competitor Sony Venice, Arri Mini
- entry level: Gemini 5K Dsmc2 at $20K
Click to expand...

Gemini - entry level ?

Because...resolution ? :)

I'd offer 6K VV cut of Gemini wafer for Venice and LF segment.
 
Hrvoje Simic said:
Gemini - entry level ?

.
Click to expand...
Entry level into the higher end cinema camera market :-)

And the upcoming Hydrogen for „mass market“

EDIT:
I am talking about current lineup. Ok, Millenium Dxl2 might be too far stretched. But not impossible.
But think, Monstro 8K for 50K, Gemini for 20K. Two sensors, two pricing scheme. Lean and mean :-)
All current Red Dsmc2 owners have option to „upgrade“ to either sensor.
 
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Thai Christen said:
Entry level into the higher end cinema camera market :-)

And the upcoming Hydrogen for „mass market“
Click to expand...

Well I'd say...that this sensor performance is high end.

I'd propose the approach:

1) Choose sensor

2) Choose cut (S16/S35/VV)

3) Choose body (Modular DSMC2/Shoulder& AC friendly full camera body)
 
Hrvoje Simic said:
Well I'd say...that this sensor performance is high end.

I'd propose the approach:

1) Choose sensor

2) Choose cut (S16/S35/VV)

3) Choose body (Modular DSMC2/Shoulder& AC friendly full camera body)
Click to expand...

Read above. I am talking about current lineup and technology.
But your approach is great of course. Cherry pick according to your need.
 
Aaron Lochert said:
Viewed at 100%, this is an exact 1:1 crop of a 4K delivery. Gemini shots are 5K to 4K downsamples as well, but I didn't label that.

26526704717_39682358c9_o.png


Monstro sits right between Gemini Standard and Low Light modes, from what I'm seeing. And as Les mentioned, it doesn't seem that downscaling 8K to 4K is really giving us much more noise reduction benefit. Yes, the grain is smaller, and detail is shines through, but it is still as colorful. Of course, finer detail means it will handle noise reduction better and probably still be more detailed than Gemini. I'd be tempted to say that if you own a Monstro, there's no need to own a Gemini except as a B camera. But if you don't, Gemini is clearly a step above everything else.

I'd like to see some well lit stuff between Helium and Gemini. This thread is really giving me the urge to swap.
Click to expand...

I had a feeling Monstro was super close in low light performance to Gemini (even in its low light mode). I prefer the look of the Monstro 8k for 4k delivery vs the Gemini 5k for 4k delivery with low light mode. The increased detail, while it is slightly noisier, feels less muddy overall. And these are stress test images. Both cameras open up a lot of new possibilities. I will probably keep saying this...mostly because I am very impressed - Monstro is an incredibly versatile camera- probably the most versatile camera on the market at the moment in terms of DR, low light, resolution, frame rates, and camera size.
 
Hrvoje Simic said:
...

I'd propose the approach:

1) Choose sensor

2) Choose cut (S16/S35/VV)

3) Choose body (Modular DSMC2/Shoulder& AC friendly full camera body)
Click to expand...

Great idea!
 
Thai Christen said:
If that is the case, then I am happy for Red and its user base.
But it is not that it is happening from today to tomorrow. This will take time.

Furthermore, I think it would help if Red streamline their products into three segments. Suggestion:
- top level, Red Millenium DXL2 version with Monstro at $80K. Main competitor Alexa LF (and Alexa 65?)
- medium level, Monstro 8K Dscm2 at $50K. Main competitor Sony Venice, Arri Mini
- entry level: Gemini 5K Dsmc2 at $20K

Leave Dragon and Helium to second hand market.
Right now, it is kinda confusing with all the different Red sensors.

And yes, get rid of the skull logo. Or make US version with skull, and no skull for the rest of the world ;-)
Not that it has bothered me, but ...

EDIT: but I am sure, Red know their financials better than me :-)
Click to expand...


I the way new sensor tech surface and comes in supply is a very difficulty one to predict or plan for. So when red find a new supplier with a different / better sensor than what they currently use have they can choose to ignore it, or to pick it up. Lately it seams that they got way faster to adapt to new wafers. Helium seams to have been a difficult one with the introduction of IPP2 and all that. But with that in place it seams like they can align their tech to a new sensor very rapidly. Which is a good thing, as price, size, resolution, DR and supply seams to fluctuate quite a bit on top tier sensors.
 
There's a horizontal green band extending out from the bright bottom edge of the lamp, other sensors have had it too.
 
Les Hillis said:
There's a horizontal green band extending out from the bright bottom edge of the lamp, other sensors have had it too.
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Yeah, all the RED sensors except there very first two (M and MX). The Gemini was looking great too, ah well, doesn't make me feel as bad anymore owning the Helium.
 
If I remember correctly, CMOS smear is exacerbated by shooting crazy high ISO's. So these 12800 ISO shots are more likely to show the CMOS smear then your average use case would.

But if it's this small at 12800 It should be a non issue at 1600 (or maybe even 3200)
 
Marcus Friedlander said:
If I remember correctly, CMOS smear is exacerbated by shooting crazy high ISO's. So these 12800 ISO shots are more likely to show the CMOS smear then your average use case would.

But if it's this small at 12800 It should be a non issue at 1600 (or maybe even 3200)
Click to expand...

I've seen smear at 800 ISO. It's dependant upon the source in the image, higher ISO can exaggerate it yes, but still.
 
And now let's see other cinema cameras in high contrast shots at ISO12800.

If you plan on shooting by rating the camera at ISO 12800 "sensor smear" is the least of your worries.

Also, if the issue is only present in ridiculously pushed signal, and not present in proper image development it may not be a sensor thing. ISO control is post acquisition data distribution and pushing it non-linearly distorts the signal.
 
Patrick Tresch said:
Where? Do you mean the lens halo?
Click to expand...

This is what a more extreme example of sensor smear looks like:
27552540958_da15f6b0d4_o.jpg


The blue blob on the right is chromatic aberration. The horizontal blue streak going left is the sensor smear.

This is Helium at ISO 2000, ISO Calibration 2, with the STH OLPF - far far extremes for what this sensor should be shooting. The light source was a table-top torch and this was wide open on the lens.

From what I've seen, it's almost like the smear is actually a changed noise floor. Less noise usually means less smear in my experience.
 
Hrvoje Simic said:
And now let's see other cinema cameras in high contrast shots at ISO12800.

If you plan on shooting by rating the camera at ISO 12800 "sensor smear" is the least of your worries.

Also, if the issue is only present in ridiculously pushed signal, and not present in proper image development it may not be a sensor thing. ISO control is post acquisition data distribution and pushing it non-linearly distorts the signal.
Click to expand...

You guys don't get it or you just don't want to. I have sensor smear in "normal/proper" image development, whatever, whatever... 800ISO, F/2.0, 23.98FPS, nice waveform, not even a super contrasty scene. Sensor smear bleeds in from bright sources in dark areas. Hell, doesn't even need to be a source, just needs to be bright enough (not even clipped). Now, either y'all don't wanna admit to something, or you truly don't have these issues and thus something is wrong with my sensor.
 
David J. Buchanan said:
You guys don't get it or you just don't want to. I have sensor smear in "normal/proper" image development, whatever, whatever... 800ISO, F/2.0, 23.98FPS, nice waveform, not even a super contrasty scene. Sensor smear bleeds in from bright sources in dark areas. Hell, doesn't even need to be a source, just needs to be bright enough (not even clipped). Now, either y'all don't wanna admit to something, or you truly don't have these issues and thus something is wrong with my sensor.
Click to expand...

I haven't seen your previous post while writing mine and Gemini example is a single one, overly pushed and insufficient to draw final conclusions.
I care zero about artefacts of a two stop post-push of two stop gain boosted image.
 
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