Don't you hate hearing these production woes....

[Hardels]

Yes i hate, Because people overreacts through it.

 

[Ed Watkins]

I do short projects that have no budget for other people sometimes. When I do, I like to work on a favor/time swap basis "I'll do this for you, if you do this for me..."

I will rarely ever work on projects where people oversell it and promise percentages, or worse, offer an insultingly low amount of money for my time and gear.

Just remember you can pay people what their are worth in more things than just cash... if you are not averse to hard work that is

 

[Scott Crawley]

Jamie it's not about doing spec work or discount work. I don't know many privileged filmmakers we've all begged and pleaded for free work. Hell I'm even having to do it right now for a project. The negativity isn't directed towards to those without a budget.

What people are cynical towards is when someone is trying to cheat them. If you say "Look I have no money. This is just for the love of the art. It probably won't make money but who knows" people will be inclined to help you.

Got to agree with Gavin. I get a lot of mixed feelings from aspiring producers. Even the most honest ones, (The ones who admit that they don't expect to make any money.) are hoping that they will ultimately be able to sell the project somehow. When we commit to a project we all want it to do well. Most of the mixed feelings come however, when they give you the release form to sign. All of my free work has been short form so I've never had to even think about negotiating points, but I think that anything longer than 17 pages really needs to offer some form of compensation. It isn't something that I'd ever expect to collect on, but what it says (If done right.) is that we want to do right by you if our wildest dream for this project comes true.

When everyone is contributing only their time and industry then all things are equal. Asking me to work for my muse is easy. I do it all the time, but respect the gear. It has taken years and countless hours of hard work to acquire and maintain the equipment. When you ask to get that for free, then all things cease to be equal. Always offer something, no matter how little, to rent the gear. You will have better results. Sure it means you have to work a little, dig a little, but you have to bring more to the table than just enthusiasm if you want to be taken seriously.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I disagree with a lot of the cynical opinions in this thread. A lot of people don't come from privileged backgrounds, but have the talent and drive to actually try and do something.

I'm making a short film in December with a budget of £10,000. My mum earns less than £12,000 a year, and I have no other family. I'm 20 years old, I go to University full time, I also work a job. I'm pulling in a lot of favours from really nice people I have met along the way that are agreeing to help me for little to no money, and I'm putting everything (literally) I have into getting this film made.

If you run a business that’s fine, I understand that. But don't hit the little guy too hard. Everybody's different, and comes from a different situation. Not everybody has hundreds of thousands to spend, and while I agree people shouldn't put up with running businesses and doing charity work, there's no need to take the piss out of people like myself. A lot of people are just trying to get a break, and that's really hard when you don't have the resources or contacts, and you have to try everything you can. The film making community would be a cold and lonely place if people just lay down and died.

Just becasue I don't have hundreds of thousands to spend, doesn't mean I'm not upto the job of creating a decent film.

jamie, here is an advise and please dont feel pissed or anything.
what i learned over the years is that the biggest problem with aspiring filmmakers is that they spend TOO MUCH MONEY on the wrong things.

why that?

ok, you say you have 10 000 pounds. (i dont know if this is the case with you, but just listen for a second), which is a lot of money when thinking of that your mum gets 12 000 a year.

my guess is that its a RED/HDCam/16mm shoot or something comparable.
and dolly shots, maybe one to two steadycam shots etc. most of the money wents behind the camera.

the aspiring filmmaker has one wish: it should look expensive--production value is the key word.

usually the crew works for free, there are too long shooting days, the food is lousy etc.

Doesnt matter how hard you try, your 10 000 pounds movie will not be like a hollywood blockbuster.

ok lets imagine, you succeed and its looking and feeling like a hollywood blockbuster...hollywood has their directors who can do this with experience...and who can handle multimillion dollar shoots, so why do they need you?


my road, this worked for me.
i would take 5000 from these 10000 and put it right there where it belongs, into your pocket.

get real actors, get one DOP and AC and try to be creative within these limitations. ( i am not talking about the "energy"-handheld camera)


you have to be different to be recognized.

 

[Jamie Havill]

jamie, here is an advise and please dont feel pissed or anything.
what i learned over the years is that the biggest problem with aspiring filmmakers is that they spend TOO MUCH MONEY on the wrong things.

why that?

ok, you say you have 10 000 pounds. (i dont know if this is the case with you, but just listen for a second), which is a lot of money when thinking of that your mum gets 12 000 a year.

my guess is that its a RED/HDCam/16mm shoot or something comparable.
and dolly shots, maybe one to two steadycam shots etc. most of the money wents behind the camera.

the aspiring filmmaker has one wish: it should look expensive--production value is the key word.

usually the crew works for free, there are too long shooting days, the food is lousy etc.

Doesnt matter how hard you try, your 10 000 pounds movie will not be like a hollywood blockbuster.

ok lets imagine, you succeed and its looking and feeling like a hollywood blockbuster...hollywood has their directors who can do this with experience...and who can handle multimillion dollar shoots, so why do they need you?


my road, this worked for me.
i would take 5000 from these 10000 and put it right there where it belongs, into your pocket.

get real actors, get one DOP and AC and try to be creative within these limitations. ( i am not talking about the "energy"-handheld camera)


you have to be different to be recognized.

I completely understand what you're saying here, and I have thought about all of this. I have spent £3000 on equipment at a highly discounted rate (all top end stuff: Red cam; Arri lighting w/chimera soft boxes; Kino lighting; pee wee dolly and track; EZ FX jib; the list goes on) and another £7000 is going on production design. My University provides support if needed as well, the have a limited range of film equipment (dollies, cranes etc) and I've spent nearly a year on my 19 minute script. There's only 7 characters, 3 of which are being filled by professional actors who have worked on very big budget films in England. I'm not naive to what makes a great film, and I think I'm pretty much stretching this budget as far as anyone could wish to. But I understand what you're saying, and I thank you for the advice.

If you watch my last work (vimeo.com/5177243) you should be able to see we spent an incredibly long time discussing settings, costume, feel, and getting the actors just right. We had a budget of just a few hundred pounds, and absolutely none of it went on equipment: it all went to paying the actors for their time; feeding people who were helping; and getting us there and back to location by 2 and a half hour train journey CARRYING the equipment ourselves. We also paid for music to be composed. I know the camera work isn't the best on it, it was all hand-held and stabilized in post, except for two crane shots (a crane which we borrowed off a friend), and a day spent with a tripod. We made that when we were all 19 years old, and now a year later we want to improve on this by having more expensive production design, and by using more professional equipment.

I'm not fishing for compliments or laying excuses down, I'm just fighting the corner as an extreme low budget aspiring film maker to say we're not all clueless dummies!

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I completely understand what you're saying here, and I have thought about all of this. I have spent £3000 on equipment at a highly discounted rate (all top end stuff: Red cam; Arri lighting w/chimera soft boxes; Kino lighting; pee wee dolly and track; EZ FX jib; the list goes on) and another £7000 is going on production design. My University provides support if needed as well, the have a limited range of film equipment (dollies, cranes etc) and I've spent nearly a year on my 19 minute script. There's only 7 characters, 3 of which are being filled by professional actors who have worked on very big budget films in England. I'm not naive to what makes a great film, and I think I'm pretty much stretching this budget as far as anyone could wish to. But I understand what you're saying, and I thank you for the advice.

If you watch my last work (vimeo.com/5177243) you should be able to see we spent an incredibly long time discussing settings, costume, feel, and getting the actors just right. We had a budget of just a few hundred pounds, and absolutely none of it went on equipment: it all went to paying the actors for their time; feeding people who were helping; and getting us there and back to location by 2 and a half hour train journey CARRYING the equipment ourselves. We also paid for music to be composed. I know the camera work isn't the best on it, it was all hand-held and stabilized in post, except for two crane shots (a crane which we borrowed off a friend), and a day spent with a tripod. We made that when we were all 19 years old, and now a year later we want to improve on this by having more expensive production design, and by using more professional equipment.

I'm not fishing for compliments or laying excuses down, I'm just fighting the corner as an extreme low budget aspiring film maker to say we're not all clueless dummies!

i liked the movie :thumbsup:

its nice, but shows some minor aspects of "student" films..dont get that wrong.

you are not a clueless dummie,

did you think about a return of investment with your planned short? 10 000 is still a lot of money if there is no plan for a return of investment.

all the best with your project

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

The other one that sort of amuses/annoys me is when they try to haggle you on a no-budget project.

"How much does it cost? More than you can afford. I'm not going to bid on this thing, just tell me how much you have and I'll decide if it's enough."

I have to admit I've even been guilty of this one a couple of times.

 

[Joel Kaye]

I have spent £3000 on equipment at a highly discounted rate (all top end stuff: Red cam; Arri lighting w/chimera soft boxes; Kino lighting; pee wee dolly and track; EZ FX jib; the list goes on) and another £7000 is going on production design.

I really don't think you fall into the category of what people are discussing in this thread. You're spending a lot of money on production value and gear. This thread is about producers who want all that stuff for free.

Overall I like your plan. I'm wary of the 19 pages part though. It's really hard to get a 20+ minute short programmed in festivals. Yes, they'll all take submissions up to 45 minutes but they tend to program 6 minutes to 12 minutes max.

If you could pack your production value and story into a perfect 6 or 12 minutes it's my belief that you'll be better off than stretching yourself to get 20.

I like that you're getting some pros in front of the camera.

Good Luck!!

 

[Scott Crawley]

I really don't think you fall into the category of what people are discussing in this thread.

Yeah, student films get a lot of latitude... a whole different animal.

 

[REDneck]

I second what Joel said... 19 minutes is an awful length for a short. Make it 7 minutes but spend the same amount of time and money and you'll have a hell of a 7 minute short that festivals will be happy to program.

Also, based on your previous work on vimeo -- spend a little money on someone who really knows how to compose music.

 

[Jamie Havill]

i liked the movie

its nice, but shows some minor aspects of "student" films..dont get that wrong.

you are not a clueless dummie,

did you think about a return of investment with your planned short? 10 000 is still a lot of money if there is no plan for a return of investment.

all the best with your project

No return on investment is planned, and that really doesn't bother me. I want to make this film not to profit, but just because I want to make a film, and it's a screenplay I really feel passionate about. If you think the video I linked to looks studenty at parts, then I guess it can't be helped. I agree some of it definitely isn't professional standard, but I'm surrounded daily by student quality work and I pride myself that it is better than that. Considering the hilariously dated equipment we had, and the very short time frame in which to shoot I’m definitely proud of what we achieved as a team.

I really don't think you fall into the category of what people are discussing in this thread. You're spending a lot of money on production value and gear. This thread is about producers who want all that stuff for free.

Overall I like your plan. I'm wary of the 19 pages part though. It's really hard to get a 20+ minute short programmed in festivals. Yes, they'll all take submissions up to 45 minutes but they tend to program 6 minutes to 12 minutes max.

If you could pack your production value and story into a perfect 6 or 12 minutes it's my belief that you'll be better off than stretching yourself to get 20.

I like that you're getting some pros in front of the camera.

Good Luck!!

Thanks man. I've taken what you’ve said on board, it's been nagging me for a while that it is too long. I'm going to bring it down to 12 minutes, thank you for pushing me into that because I think it was needed.

Also, based on your previous work on vimeo -- spend a little money on someone who really knows how to compose music.

I hope my last composer never see's that! Noted though, and I'm working with different, more established composers on the next project.

If it was up to me then I think this thread should close now. I thought the Red One was about bringing the power to the film maker, no matter what financial situation they happen to be in, or how desperate to get their film made, and also to bring a community of people together with one common passion to share their thoughts, their art and their knowledge. I think it still is, but I don't think a thread such as this is really necessary. The majority of people that you are ridiculing are probably just very newbie filmmakers (or producers) and don’t understand how it all works yet. Everybody makes mistakes, steps right in it, or makes themselves look like a fool at some point, it’s a very unforgiving and torturous road to becoming a filmmaker.